This episode we talk to Joanna Goldberg of the Media Film Festival, where White Meat: Appetizer will be screening, about the mainstreaming of horror, our favorite subgenres, and how to Trojan horse your friends into enjoying horror.

Listen to “The White Meat Podcast” on Spreaker.

Here’s the transcript:

David Dylan Thomas: Hello, welcome everybody to the White Meat Podcast. I’m your host, David Dylan Thomas, a writer, director of White Meat, a movie in which Black zombies eat white people. That’s the, the short answer. And we just came back from the Pan African Film Festival in Los Angeles where we premiered the short film White Meat: Appetizer, which is kind of the appetizer, short film kind of proof of concept of the larger feature we wanna make.

It went wonderfully. We had a packed house. We were showing with six or seven other shorts that were all very good. And the reaction the audience reaction was fantastic. They laughed where they needed to laugh. They were scared where they needed to be scared. Like all the things you hope work as a filmmaker worked.

And the nice thing was this was the first time we showed for like real like strangers, like people who did not even know necessarily what the premise of the movie was. Maybe they were there to see a different short, maybe they just, you know. But it all worked so well. So it was a sort of like, you know, you could tell they really meant it.

And we also got see some other great short films in particular a movie called Spilled Milk that was produced by Monkeypaw was there, it actually ended up winning best short audience award. And so I got to actually got to hang out with a lot of them afterwards, which was great. Very cool people.

I hope to have the director on the podcast sometime in the future. But anyway the, the reception was wonderful. So I was in LA for about a week, had a lot of great conversations. But yeah, that we even had a backer. One of our Kickstarter backers show up and at they were at the screening too, so I got to meet up with them.

But yeah, I can’t say enough good things about that experience. So that, that’s our world premier folks. We, we did it. We got out there and people loved it. They had a great reaction. We have more festivals coming up. We got into the Media Film Festival. In fact, our guest today works with the Media Film Festival, so we’ll talk about that.

And the West Chester Film Festival we also got into, and we’re actually in competition there for best comedy, which is, is is interesting. And yeah, I actually am recording this just a few hours after I was on WURD radio it’s my first radio interview. Anyway we’ll link to that, all the stuff that we’re talking about we will link to on our Instagram @whitemeatmovie on Instagram and at our website, whitemeatmovie.com. Which the best place honestly to keep up is to subscribe for our newsletter there, ’cause that way, you know, you stay, stay in the loop. But yeah so it’s a lot of stuff happening now.

We’re super happy about it. And yeah, so this this episode we are gonna talk to Joanna Goldberg, who helps run the, who helps out with the the Media Film Festival, which is gonna happen on March 13th and 14th. We’ll give you all the details in the in, in the interview itself. But we had this lovely conversation about kind of the mainstreaming of horror and sort of different subgenres we like and that we’re into.

But yeah just enjoy it and like I said, we’ll be at the Media Film Festival and you can see us there. And like I said, lots of other screenings coming up. And you can go to our Instagram to keep up with that. So without further ado, here is our interview with Joanna Goldberg.

[musical interlude]

David Dylan Thomas: Hey everybody. Welcome to the White Meat Podcast. I’m your host, David Dylan Thomas, and today we are talking to Joanna Goldberg. Joanna, tell the good people here what it is you get up to.

Joanna Goldberg: Hello, David. Thank you so much for having me. So what I get up to in relation to all things horror, I am a resident of Media, Pennsylvania, and I’m serving on the committee and working as a juror for the 19th Media Film Festival.

So, this is a festival where we like to highlight local and regional films, but also international and national films of the short variety. And this year when I joined the committee, we were really trying to focus on finding the best of the best and not just putting films out for film’s sake, but we were so excited to find that most of what was submitted that was really standing out to us was local.

And when we saw White Meat being shot in Media proper, and as a horror fan, just knowing that that was, you know, something that I went into this knowing I would have a penchant for that really spoke to me. But I was really happy to see that that spoke to other members of the committee who may not be as into horror as I am, but really saw something special in that film.

So, what I get up to is, again, working for a Media Film Festival in a volunteer capacity, and then the thing that pays my bills. I work in advancement operations for a small liberal arts institution in the area.

David Dylan Thomas: Cool. And just so folks know where to catch it—and again, thank you for accepting the film, super psyched to go—when is the Media Film Festival?

Joanna Goldberg: Yes. Yes. Congratulations, first of all. So this year’s Media Film Festival will be over the weekend of March 13th and 14th. So on Friday the 13th, we’re going to have a sort of science fiction and horror special showing 7:00 PM at the Delaware County Institute of Science.

And then on Saturday, March 15th, we have a matinee at 3:00 PM and a finale and awards at 7:00 PM and both of those showings will be at the Media Theater, so everything in Media proper in the borough, you know, grab some dinner, some drinks, come see some great films.

David Dylan Thomas: Oh, that’s awesome. And can I tell you something shameful?

Joanna Goldberg: Of course. This is a safe space.

David Dylan Thomas: This will, this will be my first time actually setting foot in the Media Theater.

Joanna Goldberg: No shame, no shame.

David Dylan Thomas: I’ve, I’ve, I’ve been living here for over almost 20 years and it’s one of those like, oh yeah, we’re totally gonna go. We’re totally gonna go. And we just never do it.

It’s sort of like people who live near the Liberty Bell, it’s like, oh yeah, it’s the Liberty Bell. Let’s go. Let’s, and they never do. So this was our, but it’s funny because like even when we were living in the city, people were like, oh no, Media Theater theater’s for real. You gotta go. It’s like this really, really high quality stuff.

It’s like, so I swear to God, we are going to go see an actual theater show there at some point, but my first time will probably be, unless I go before then we’ll probably be seeing the movies at the Media Film Festival. So.

Joanna Goldberg: Well, I mean, there, there’s no better way to, to start your introduction there to see your own work on screen.

But yes, it is, it’s such a cool space. I have yet to go to the Science Institute, so I’m really interested in checking that out.

David Dylan Thomas: I don’t think I’ve been there either. Now that I think about it. I think this, this might be my first time finding out we had one. So yeah, as a, as a Delco resident, there’s not a ton of Delco things I’ve been to.

Joanna Goldberg: Right, right.

David Dylan Thomas: But the other thing I wanted to mention, so. You’ve seen the movie. Did you know, well, first of all, have you, have you ever been to Bittersweet Kitchen?

Joanna Goldberg: I have been to Bittersweet Kitchen.

David Dylan Thomas: Did you recognize Bittersweet Kitchen?

Joanna Goldberg: As I was watching the film, I was like, this looks familiar.

And then I, I I, I looked into it a little bit more. I was like, oh, this is like, this is a Media film, but it’s not even advertised that way. I kind of like that it feels very accessible. I was like, was this shot in Philly? Was this shot in New York? Like, it feels like in every man sort of cafe, which is great, but I love that it has those Media roots, and I think that will be really exciting for our residents to be able to kind of spot that. When they’re watching it in the theater and saying, oh, I’ve, I’ve been to this place. Like, Hmm. I never had zombies there, but.

David Dylan Thomas: And shout out to Michelle West who owns that space for being so generous with allowing us to completely redecorate it with blood. So one of the other things, you know, we were chatting about earlier is like your love of horror, well, lemme ask you about that.

How did you get into horror?

Joanna Goldberg: Oh, so I, I know that sometimes when horror fans chat about how they got into horror, it’s like, oh, I got into it much later. I was really scared as a kid, not me. I feel like I came out the womb, like ready to see some scary shit. And I don’t, I don’t know why exactly, but if I had to pinpoint a moment where I really became a horror fan, it wasn’t through books, it wasn’t through tv, it wasn’t through film. It was through the magic of the Haunted Mansion at Disney World.

David Dylan Thomas: Wow.

Joanna Goldberg: So riding that for the first time as a five-year-old, I remember being terrified to go in and I came out and I was just hooked. Like my appetite for horror became insatiable and I was that kid growing up who had all of the horror movies and every Friday night would watch a new one and would have friends over. I feel like there are adults now who are scarred because as a child they came to my house and watched something that they shouldn’t have. So I’m sorry if anyone’s listening and they’re like, oh God, April Fool’s Day.

I can’t get it out of my head. But I, I’ve been a horror fan for such a long time, and I love that it’s something that has stayed with me into adulthood, and I have met other adults, you know, other, other fellow weirdos through the community or, you know, at horror conventions or at school who just, it, it kind of felt like this underground community, but I feel like it’s also coming more to the forefront and horror’s becoming more accessible in a lot of ways. I think I was saying to you before, I don’t necessarily look like a horror fan. I look quite normal. But I, I love that there’s so many subgenres of horror and horror also touches all of these other genres, especially now. So it is becoming something that you can talk about with anyone.

It used to be sort of this dark secret, like, oh yeah, I’m a horror fan, don’t be a horror fan. Don’t be scared of me. And now it’s, yeah. Oh, I love horror and you probably do too, so let’s chat about that.

David Dylan Thomas: Well, it’s interesting what you say about looking like a typical horror fan because I think in my head, before I met lots of horror fans, I did have this image in my head and it was sort of goth, maybe dressed up like a member of Kiss.

I don’t know, like, like very. Like the horror film. Like you assume that the fan looks like the thing they’re a fan of, I guess. And then like, when you actually get into it, you’re like, no, there’s all shapes and sizes. Like anyone, like there’s no absolutely zero. And there’s, there’s no visual indicators, right?

That this is a horror fan or not. Which I love. That’s, I was saying to you earlier that like, I, I, it is one of the most diverse, if not the most diverse and welcoming communities I’ve found in, in fandom is the horror fandom.

Joanna Goldberg: Absolutely. Yeah. I, I love that Delco is kind of carving out its own, its own group of horror folks.

I know that there, there’s Delco Horror Haven, and I love that there’s space for both representation at the Media Film Festival and through the Media Arts Council and with Delco Horror Haven. It’s like, yes, please. The more the merrier. Like, we want to be communal, we wanna talk about this. And there’s just.

I mean, you’re never gonna find a group of people who wanna nerd out more than horror fans, maybe, maybe comic book fans, but there’s a Venn diagram there.

David Dylan Thomas: Oh, absolutely.

Joanna Goldberg: But yeah, it is, there’s just so much to discuss and so much joy in talking about blood and guts and zombies, supernatural and everything.

There’s just, there’s, there’s so much richness there. And it’s, you’re right, it is a great community and it’s so diverse.

David Dylan Thomas: Is there, is there a particular subgenre you find yourself drawn to?

Joanna Goldberg: That’s a great question. Yes and no. I mean, I’m, I’m an equal opportunity lover of all things horror. I have found myself, I think in the last few years, really zoning in on things that are more within a state of reality.

So sometimes that’s, you know, international horror through French extremism. Sometimes that is, I’m trying to think of a particular film that stood out to me recently that really felt exciting and horrific because it was so based in reality. I don’t know if you’re familiar. It’s a French Canadian film called Red Rooms.

David Dylan Thomas: I haven’t seen it yet. I’ve been warned about it though.

Joanna Goldberg: Yeah. So, so that’s kind of where I tend to, to live. In the space of subgenre, the ones that people are warned against, like, ooh, this is, like, if it comes with a trigger warning, I feel like that’s where, that’s, that’s my happy place. Like, okay, let me, let me really delve into this.

And it’s, it’s not from a position of saying like, what can I handle? But I think it’s from a position of, knowing that there are so many subgenres that exist within horror and kind of seeing how far things can be pushed in a way that does still exist within a realm of reality. So for those that are not familiar with it, just ’cause we’re talking about this particular film, Red Rooms centers on a character who becomes really enmeshed in a true crime scenario and finds herself going to court proceedings and hearings for a an accused serial killer. And it’s intense. But I, I really do find myself fascinated with the realm of horror that can happen. And I also love the things that might be able to happen and the things that hopefully can’t happen. So I, I love it all. Sure.

David Dylan Thomas: I think what’s interesting, and maybe we should give folks a primer on French extremism and kind of its influence if you wanna explain that a little.

Joanna Goldberg: So French extremism, so I, I think that, you know, as a, as a, an American film lover we, or an Amer an American who is a film lover, I should say. Also a lover of American films. We are exposed to some international films, but nearly not nearly enough. And as a horror fan, I think there are some international subgenres that find their way into the mainstream of American horror. Like I’m thinking early two thousands there was like J Horror. So things coming outta Japan, there’s Korean horror. French extremism I think in the last, at this point, probably 15 years, definitely had a rise in in having an American audience.

And it’s basically seeing how far can we push characters who are sadistic, how far can we push gore that is in a realm of realism. And, and being able to expose an audience to villains and scenarios that probably wouldn’t show up in American cinema. So the, the sort of crossover with, with French extremism I think has really been a piece that has hit for horror fans, but that’s not necessarily a piece that you’re going to see hit the mainstream. What I’m seeing hit the mainstream, and I hope that we’ll have an opportunity to talk more about this, is kind of seeing horror find its way into other more mainstream genres.

So you’re seeing more crossover between horror, comedy, between horror drama, even horror westerns. Not that westerns are that popular, but it does, you know kind of already have a built in fan base for people who may not already be into horror. And I think in that way, horror is building up its fan base and building up an audience that it wouldn’t have otherwise had in a really interesting way where it’s almost this sneaky way of getting horror into the average household of, hey, I’m watching a movie that has a really well-known star in it, or a really popular director, and this is pretty good. And oh wait, is this horror? Like having that, that realization after the fact. I really love when I can show a film to somebody who’s not a horror fan and they come back to me and say, oh, I really liked that.

I’m like, you know, that was a horror movie. Right? They’re shocked.

David Dylan Thomas: Can you gimme an example of a movie like that where you’ve kind of Trojan horsed someone into horror?

Joanna Goldberg: Yes I can. So my brother and my dad, who’s now deceased, neither of which were horror fans, this was during the lockdown stage of COVID.

We were sharing like just anything with one another to keep ourselves sane. And I said, have you guys seen this movie called Bone Tomahawk?

David Dylan Thomas: Oh my Lord.

Joanna Goldberg: Now neither of them are particularly fans of, of westerns, but I I, I had watched this film and I was really compelled by the plot and the characters and their, I mean, again, trigger warnings for, for folks.

There’s some seriously intense violence in this film. It’s also really a beautiful film about, you know, I guess it’s a revenge film, but it’s also a western, it’s also a it’s kind of like a buddy comedy and a buddy drama. Like it’s a little bit of everything, but the performances were so strong. Anything that has Richard Jenkins in it, I feel like is, is gonna hit.

So I recommended this to my brother and my dad, and they both came back to me and they were like, wow, this was really good. That one scene was really fucked up, but. I’ll leave that to the imagination for those that haven’t seen it or again, proceed, proceed with caution. But a film that, as you mentioned, Trojan horsed to others into watching.

But I like it when people do watch a horror film that I’ve recommended and they don’t feel bamboozled. They feel like they, something that they wouldn’t have sought out otherwise, and they’re exposed to something that is really unique for them and might open them up to, to something similar in the future.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. And I think that’s a really good example. ’cause for the first, like two thirds, Bone Tomahawk is genuinely just a really solid character-driven western.

There’s creepy elements, but it doesn’t really go full. I would, I would actually say some of those scenes would be at home in a French extremism horror film.

Until the last third. But it, it, it earns it, right? Like it’s, it’s organic to the plot that these horrible things are happening. I think the other secret weapon that film has is Kurt Russell. Right? Like if you’re like, you know, mainstream horror, or sorry, mainstream, like just action film fan, you’d be like, oh, it’s Kurt Russell film.

I trust him. I, he, I’m in good hands.

Joanna Goldberg: Right. He’s not gonna hurt me. It’ll be fine.

David Dylan Thomas: I was gonna say nothing bad’s gonna happen to him, but

Joanna Goldberg: Right, right. That’s another thing I really love about that film without spoiling anything. You know, you. Oftentimes when you’re watching any sort of adventure or thriller or action movie, you kind of know that, you know who’s gonna wind up being okay in the end and I love that Bone Tomahawk sets you up with an array of, of really interesting characters and may not end the way you expect in terms of who gets out okay.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah, and I think that was one of the I remember my mother telling me about seeing Alien for the first time and how shocking it was that the person you think.

Like the bigger star in that is, is Tom Skerritt, the pers the people you think are going to survive. And the people who do survive are not what you think. Right. It was like shocking to see certain things happen.

Joanna Goldberg: Right, right.

David Dylan Thomas: And thinking of that, ’cause I’m thinking about what are my like gateway films? ’cause I didn’t grow up liking horror at all, or at least I like things that I didn’t identify as horror like Godzilla movies or something like that, or Frankenstein movie, whatever. But but one of my gateways was definitely Aliens, plural. Right? Which suckers you in with action, but definitely has these horror elements to one of these horror moments. And then you might backtrack your way into horror by watching Alien.

But no, I think that’s, I think it’s interesting how that process works. What are some other films that you’ve found have like other, other films that, where horror has kind of infiltrated the mainstream?

Joanna Goldberg: I mean, if we’re really bringing it back. First thing that comes to mind is Jaws

David Dylan Thomas: Sure.

Joanna Goldberg: Which is maybe my favorite film of all time. But, you know, a, a blockbuster, a an action film, a family drama you know, something that, that’s still a film that I debate with a lot of people with whether or not it’s horror. Which is a great conversation to have. And then that brings us all the way up to now where, you know, we’re, we’re approaching the, the Oscar season and Sinners is the film that has garnered more horror nominations than any film in history. Which at its core is a horror movie, but you’ll find a lot of people who say, no, it’s an action movie. Or, you know, it’s a romance or it’s a drama. And it’s, it’s a little bit of all of that. And I feel like the marketing of that film was also really smart in that it did market itself as all those things.

And spoiler warning, if we’re, we’re putting that out there, but you find out a little bit later, oh, this is a vampire movie. Oh, okay. But it has so much more. So you’re able to appeal to a broader audience and yeah, that’s, that’s something I’m really happy to see is happening in horror now, is it is becoming a bit more mainstream.

Again, I love, I love the bits of horror that are really for the horror fans, but I love that there are accessible bits of horror. I love that horror is getting though it is very politicized. I’m loving that horror is getting more Oscar attention. I mean, even in. Gosh, what was it, 2017? Is that when Hereditary came out?

I remember like thinking like, wow, what an upset. How did Tony Collette not get nominated? And this year Amy Madigan is nominated for Weapons. Like that would not have happened 10 years ago. It didn’t happen 10 years ago with what I would argue is a better performance, but [indecipherable] performance is really good in Weapons, and I’m glad to see it getting that attention.

I’m really excited to see that. A lesser known horror film, The Ugly Stepsister.

David Dylan Thomas: Yes.

Joanna Goldberg: Got a nomination for hair and makeup. Very well deserved.

David Dylan Thomas: Oh yeah.

Joanna Goldberg: Whew. Not predicted to win, but like, again, Oscars are really politicized. Like if it just puts the name of a film into a, the average household. Like that’s, that’s a great service right there.

So we’re just seeing more of that attention in horror in a way that has made it more accessible to an average audience is something I’m really happy to see.

David Dylan Thomas: I mean, I think that’s an interesting element too, right? So bringing it back to French extremism for a second, I think the other element that distinguishes French extremism from say, just exploitation films of the sixties and seventies where it really was about just how much gore can we throw at the screen? Is this sense—deserved or not—but the sense of artiness, right? Because it’s French, right? That there’s, there’s a certain craft at work, there’s a certain politicization at work, a certain aesthetic at work.

Where, yes, you’re gonna walk into this thing and you’re not gonna know just how far we’re gonna go. And that’s part of the fun. Or the horror is how far is this gonna go? But it’s also, there’s usually some deep, deep trauma, deep, deep like thing we’re talking about. There’s a subject with a capital S, right?

A subtext with the capital S going on here. And I think that that is expressed in a lot of the horror that’s making it into Oscar conversations, awards conversations, is if you look at things like The Substance or The Ugly Stepsister or Sinners, there’s this notion that it is, and I hate to use this term, elevated, right?

Even Hereditary. Hereditary is one of the first like. How A24 like sort of stamped its brand on this is A24 horror. It is all the tropes, right? The sort of possession tropes that you get. But we’re gonna do it in this very artistic, deliberate, aesthetic way that you saw with that, that you saw with The Witch that you saw with a lot of these things where it’s like even without the horror elements, you can kind of look at this and it feels arty. I don’t know.

Joanna Goldberg: No, I, I mean, I am, I’m somebody who really jumped on the elevated horror bandwagon almost immediately. I remember when The Witch came out and feeling like, oh, this is different.

And also feeling really excited in a way that subjects that are really difficult to talk about death and grief and trauma became subjects that you could easily talk about through a plot of a film. So you didn’t necessarily have to have this conversation with your neighbor about like, let me talk to you about my childhood trauma, but let me talk to you about this movie that deals with childhood trauma.

And, you know, you can sort of exercise some of your demons in that way and that it has become a piece of art outside yourself. And at this point, elevated horror is its own trope to the point where I think there, there’s a new Scary Movie coming out where I think that’s gonna be sort of the core piece that they’re mocking.

But you know, in a lot of ways, I feel like some of the most beautiful films, both visually and in subject matter of the last 10 years have been horror films and just exploring things. I mean, this is something I love about horror in general, but exploring subjects that can be taboo or are difficult to talk about even coming to a realization with yourself about like things that come up in your therapy sessions if you’re, if you happen to be in therapy and like, shout out to those of us who are but if you’re not, that’s okay too. But you know, having that, that space to explore subjects that yeah, are, are difficult.

Being able to do that through horror is wonderful.

David Dylan Thomas: It’s funny, by the way. So I am in therapy and I love the, the, the shift we’ve started to see in some circles from, oh, you’re in therapy, that’s okay too. Oh, you’re not in therapy. Oh, that’s fine.

Joanna Goldberg: Right.

David Dylan Thomas: I love, I love that for you. You know?

Joanna Goldberg: Yes, yes. It’s, it’s no longer a secret if you’re in therapy.

It’s like a secret if you’re not like, well, why aren’t you? You probably should be. I mean, I’ve heard that those of us who are in therapy are in therapy because of the people in our lives who will not go to therapy.

David Dylan Thomas: That’s funny. But no, I think that’s an interesting intersection too though. And it’s funny, I’m, I’m starting to see pushback even against like horror where it’s like, oh my God, can I have a horror movie where, where people aren’t suffering through some trauma? Can I just have a guy kill people? Is that so much to ask?

Joanna Goldberg: And horror still has that for you too.

David Dylan Thomas: Oh, absolutely. Have you seen In a Violent Manner or violent? I think that’s-

Joanna Goldberg: In a Violent Nature.

David Dylan Thomas: Nature. Thank you. In a Violent Nature, have you seen that?  

Joanna Goldberg: Well, I’ve seen clips of it. I have not watched the whole film, but yes, I have. I’ve seen enough to know like, oh, I’m glad this exists because yes, it is just, it’s a POV from the killer’s perspective. Just some brutal killings, like, oh yeah, no rhyme or reason. We need that too.

David Dylan Thomas: It is. It is. And it’s funny too ’cause even in its own way, it’s elevated because I, I, I encourage if, if you like those movies where it’s like, this could happen in the real world and it’s very extreme.

What’s really kind of neat about it is the kills, two things. One, the kills in the film. Some of them are the most extreme kills I’ve ever seen, and some of them are some of the most subtle nuanced. Something happens like beautifully subtle kills and you don’t, and you never know what you’re gonna get.

That’s the thing that really keeps you on edge in that movie. It’s like something’s about to happen, but I don’t, I literally have no idea how bad it’s gonna be or if it’s gonna be bad at all. So that’s almost more unsettling than, oh, here’s the killer. We’re about to see some real fucked up shit, you know?

But the other thing it does I think, I think of it as the No Country for Old Men of horror films.

Joanna Goldberg: Ooh. Oh, let’s go.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah, because without going too into detail, it ends up being this meditation on that very subject of you don’t know what you’re gonna get.

And that same kind of way where No Country for Old Men, some of the action scenes are long and drawn out, and some of the scenes are, the killing happens entirely off screen. And it’s meaningless, just utterly mean-. You know, like all of that. It’s doing it, it’s almost, yeah. I think it, I feel it’s very much like the horror version of that trope and that theme played out I think really, really well.

Sometimes you don’t even know if a kill is going to happen. Like it’s, it’s, to me, that’s the more unsettling part than the truly unsettling kills that do happen in the film.

Joanna Goldberg: For sure. Wow, okay. So In a Violent Nature should have had you doing their marketing ’cause that

David Dylan Thomas: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That, yeah.

Joanna Goldberg: Sold, sold.

David Dylan Thomas: So yeah, so speaking more about like the mainstream of horror, what kind of political aspects do you think, or are there political aspects? I’ll ask it that way, that do you think have encouraged like the mainstreaming of horror? In two hours or in two hours or less, please.

Joanna Goldberg: I mean, I’m sure every horror conversation you have these days is going to touch on of course, horror is political and yes, especially now, and I can’t take credit for this, but I have heard in some way, shape or form from others that when fascists rise, horror thrives.

So being able to, yes, look at an increasingly. You know, I, I wanna be politically correct, but I also can’t be politically correct. So an increasingly-

David Dylan Thomas: On this podcast just go.

Joanna Goldberg: Yeah. I mean.

David Dylan Thomas: It’s fine.

Joanna Goldberg: Mean an increasingly scary world where like, I don’t even know how to have a conversation that is apolitical anymore.

I mean, you can’t even talk about the fucking weather without it being apolitical. Like, well, the snow’s going crazy. Like, yeah. Global warming. It’s like, is that real? Oh my God. So, yeah, I mean, between racial politics, sexual politics, climate politics. Like pick your subgenre of politics and you can find horror that lines up with it.

But yes, I mean, horror is in so many ways pushing against what is pushing us down, and there’s so much pushing us down right now just as a society that I think there’s a lot more room to bring horror into the mainstream because there are so many horrific things happening that you have this pairing of escapism through film, but also being able to face what’s going on through a lens where it’s not happening to you directly. I mean, that’s the beauty of film and beauty of art, and bringing it back to a space of like, okay, now I’ve learned some, I’ve learned something, or I’ve taken something from this piece of art that I didn’t have when I walked into the theater and I’m in some ways better equipped to handle what’s going on in front of me.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. It’s almost a, a rehearsal space for fear.

It’s interesting we were talking about subgenres you gravitate toward, I recently have been gravitating toward cosmic horror. And just as a, a primer, cosmic horror is it’s kinda HP lovecraft without the racism.

But he would write about these sort of like interdimensional beings, this horror that’s so big and so vast and so whatever that even to gaze upon it is to go mad. Like that’s a very Lovecraftian, cosmic horror trope. And I think the reason I’ve been drawn to it, and some examples might be anything Lovecrafted.

So or In the Mouth of Madness is, is a good example where you have a text that even to read it is to go mad. That kind of stuff. And I think I’m drawn to it now because that bigness that this is so big that to even confront it is to go mad, I think is what a lot of us feel right now with the current political situation.

Like none of us in our lifetimes have ever really encountered such broad racism, such broad sexism or anti-trans sentiment. Such broad fascism. The last time, you know, any of us would have faced that is a, you know, generations ago during World War II to just have it be so big. And so like individual communities have faced that, absolutely. But at the, the sheer number of people who can get it now, you know what I mean? Like I think is something, and so. People. My reaction and part, and I feel like a lot of people is this idea of this is so big to even gaze upon the newspaper, is to go mad, like the newspaper has become the book that drives you mad.

And so I think I personally have been gravitating more and more towards cosmic horror. I’m right now watching a four hour epic dissection of the first season of True Detective that’s getting into the cosmic horror elements. The folk horror elements. Folk horror is another one I find myself really drawn to.

And it’s all sort of like connecting. It’s like, oh, yeah, like if I were you, Matthew McConaughey and I had this like, insight into the darkness and pervasiveness of existential crisis, I’d, I’d be less fun to hang out with too. I get it. I get it.

Joanna Goldberg: Yeah. What does he say? Like, I’m not good at parties.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah.Yeah, yeah. I, I, I get it. I get it. I get it. Are any of us good at parties anymore? I get it. I get it. So anyway, that’s, that’s what I’ve been gravitating towards.

Joanna Goldberg: Wow. I mean, I, so I’m, I’m very fortunate in that my husband is also a big horror fan, so that makes it really easy on movie night, like, what are we gonna watch?

But he’s also a cosmic horror fan, and we sometimes do debate about what we are in a space that we can handle in terms of watching. Like sometimes what I’ll suggest to him is like, nope, that’s too real. Like, I need something that is, that is much further away. And I’ll feel like, no, that’s so big, it feels overwhelming and it makes me confront, you know, thoughts of what is the purpose of all of this.

Like, oh God, like those are sometimes the conversations that I’m not able to have. But I love that you’re digging into True Detective season one because I’m actually rewatching True Detective season one right now. So we’ll have to chat about what this documentary is or what this text is that you’re-

David Dylan Thomas: I’ll I’ll send it, I’ll send it to you ’cause this is a guy who does like literally six, seven hour dissections of like Ari Aster films. Like I watched, I watched six hours. Not all at once, mind you. But I watched six hours of dissection of Midsommar and I was interested the whole time. That’s the miracle of it. Like you’re like six hours, no way.

And then you start watching and you’re like. Wait, that’s it?

Joanna Goldberg: Right, right. No, that’s, that’s such a great-

David Dylan Thomas: We were just getting into, into the Swedish fascism of it all. Like, come on, let’s go.

Joanna Goldberg: No, I, you know, sometimes we’ll talk about what the hell you’re willing to die on. And mine is, I’ll get to a caveat in a moment, but mine is that a feature if it’s longer than two hours, like you don’t know how to make a movie. But my caveat to that, my primary caveat is Ari Aster, because every time I watch midsummer or Midsommar, I feel like, oh, this could be longer. Like I can get so much more of this. Like not a moment is wasted. And I think that goes back to elevated horror.

There’s a lot to say. And there’s a lot to show and no shot is wasted in that film. Everything is gorgeous. And everything has meaning and every bit of dialogue tells you something about what’s going on in, in like the interior of a character. So yes, a movie in my opinion, should not be over two hours, but Ari Aster can do I guess whatever he wants.

David Dylan Thomas: Well, I think you bring up another interesting point about elevated horror and like mainstreaming it into indie film, if that makes sense. Is is the density of some of these movies, right? So if you take a Robert Eggers movie or you take an Ari Aster film like. There’ll be like a scroll in the background and you can like zoom in on that scroll and spend an hour dissecting all the sort of gothic or visigoth, you know, like runes that are being like, he for real, this, this essayist for real, like takes apart the runes in Midsommar and explains what they mean and how they are actually very significant for each of the characters and blah, blah, blah. It’s like, and you can, because Ari Aster put that shit in there, like he really took care. So I think that is another thing about the, the, the elevated horror, is it it, and the reason I don’t like to use the term elevated is because it assumes that the genre is at its base, base. Which it isn’t like, but you could describe it as dense horror, right? You could describe it as this is horror where we’re going to very carefully paint, it’s a painterly horror where we’re gonna very carefully place all these objects in the room in a certain way to tell a certain story rather than it’s a cabin. There’s a guy with an axe. Run from him. The end. You know?

Joanna Goldberg: Yes. No, I, I feel like there’s so much about horror and its current iterations where there’s so much care that’s put into it. I, I can’t remember the last time I watched a horror movie and it didn’t feel like it was made with love or somebody who really cared about what was going on.

Even if it is a run of the mill slasher, I mean there’s, there’s effort there and there’s effort to reach an audience and have them walk away with something that they didn’t come into the theater with. And I’m, I’m just really excited to see where horror goes in the next few years, and I’m happy for where it is currently, but I’m just, I, I mean, I became a horror fan in, I’m dating myself here, but I became a horror fan in the late eighties, early nineties, and the nineties were such a shit time for horror. Like I feel like my, my love of horror is so pure, and those of us who are of this sort of like, you know Gen X, like elder, millennial phase like ours is the purest horror love of all, because we were there when it was really terrible.

So now when we see that, that horror is reaching a mainstream, where it’s getting, you know, it’s flowers at awards season, it’s, yes. See?

David Dylan Thomas: So Joanna, thank you so much for being on the White Meat Podcast.

Joanna Goldberg: Thank you so much for having me. I am so thrilled to be seeing White Meat: Appetizer on the big screen at the Media Film Festival.

So if I can just put it in another plug, we’ll be airing your film and plenty of others that are of amazing quality. I’m so thrilled with the lineup we have this year March 13th and 14th at the Delaware County Institute of Science on Friday the 13th, and then at the Media Theater on March 14th 3:00 PM and 7:00 PM

David Dylan Thomas: And where can folks get tickets?

Joanna Goldberg: So tickets you can find at mediaartscouncil.org. There is a page specifically for the Media Film Festival, so you can get your tickets there, you can see what films are showing. A little blurb about each film. And yeah, you can get a full fest pass for actually all three showings. So each showing will have a different set of films.

So you have the opportunity to see, I think it’s 24 shorts that we’re showing this year. And you can also get a discount if you do go to all three shows.

David Dylan Thomas: Awesome. Thank you so much and for the White Meat Podcast, I’m your host, David Dylan Thomas, and we will see you next time.