This episode we talk to playwright (and White Meat: Appetizer actor) Gauri Mangala about her new work Badmaash: An Internet-y Play and the role of artists during a time of social and political upheaval.

Here’s the transcript:

Listen to “The White Meat Podcast” on Spreaker.

David Dylan Thomas: Hey everybody, this is David Dylan Thomas. Welcome to the White Meat Podcast. We’re gonna keep the intro real short this week.

This weekend we are showing at the Media Film Festival. That’s the big news. March 13th and 14th. Our screening is the closing night screening on the 14th, go to really just Google “Media Film Festival in Media, PA” that’s probably the easiest way to find tickets. But yeah, we’re really excited about that. We actually shot the film in Media, PA so it’s kind of a homecoming for the film. So we hope to see you there.

This week we are talking to good friend of mine, Gauri Mangala, who just finished a staged reading of an awesome play. We’re gonna talk about that. She’s also one of the background players in White Meat: Appetizer. And yeah, she was there actually for the original table read of the full length screenplay back in 2022.

So she’s been with us for a while, but we’ve been good friends this whole time and we are both gonna sort of talk about our approaches to how to make art or like the role of the artist in a time of crisis. So that’s definitely something we have a lot to get into. So, without further ado, here is our interview with Gauri Mangala.

[musical interlude]

David Dylan Thomas: Welcome everybody again to the White Meat Podcast. I’m your host, David Dylan Thomas. Our guest today is Gauri Mangala. Gauri, tell the good folks here what it is you get up to.

Gauri Mangala: Hey. Yeah. I’m a theater practitioner of all sorts. An actor, writer, producer, and then I do a lot of technical theater work on the side.

Yeah, that’s me.

David Dylan Thomas: And two reasons I wanted to have you on the podcast. First off Gauri has been with White Meat from the start. She was part of the cast of a table read we did in 2022, if can believe it.

Gauri Mangala: That’s crazy.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. That’s, you know, how long we’ve been working on this. And she was great in that.

And then I kept in touch with her and then when I made Appetizer, I asked her to be one of the background players. Tell, tell folks a little bit about your background role in White Meat:Appetizer.

Gauri Mangala: Yeah. I played a character named Mina. And you know, for, for those who have been following White Meat for a while, they understand that zombies in in White Meat are, are killing white folks, but they’re not touching any people of color.

And so part of my role is to not get killed, which is awesome. Eat pastries in the coffee shop and, and see some really cool action and, and survive, which is, I think, the dream for any woman of color, frankly.

David Dylan Thomas: I, I don’t know, like I, we, so the, the movie takes place in a coffee shop and we got to eat some of the, you know, the food they had there.

But a mostly our production designer brought in some really nice pastries as like background food and it was actually really good.

Gauri Mangala: So like, they’re really good. Yeah, I had like a raspberry jam pastry and I was like, I hope it’s okay that I’m eating this whole, yeah, this whole thing.

David Dylan Thomas: No, but our, our craft service game was on point. I was very proud of that.

And well, you don’t really have any, you know, lines on camera, so to speak. I, I was really impressed with your performance ’cause basically what you get to do in the movie is be normal and then be very scared and your very scared face, which again, we only see from like a distance under a table, like was really good. I’m like, is is Gauri okay? Like you did a really good, like where did you like pull from for that? That was a really good performance.

Gauri Mangala: Well, it’s funny because you mentioned that and I think about there was a day where they needed some screamers, right, for that and I had come in and done that as well and everyone made a lot of fun of me ’cause apparently I didn’t, I couldn’t hear cut over my own screaming. And so some of your sound team had to come around the corner. And I remember one, I don’t even remember his name, but one guy came over and his headphones are still on and he looks so perturbed. He’s like, you, didn’t he hear? Like, I was like, you know, I really like going for it.

And same thing with, same thing with the ending. I love, you know, I love horror and it’s not a genre that I’ve played it, it’s not a genre that comes up a lot in like stage theater unless we’re doing Dracula. I mean, I think now we’re, we’re coming to terms with it and, and trying to develop. But, so I was just excited to like be able to play in that realm a little bit.

And so yeah, I kind of gave it my all and maybe screamed a little bit too much and scared our neighbors, but, but, but I had a great time with it. And also like being around, I mean, not for nothing that zombie makeup’s doing a whole lot for everybody, right? Like, it’s kind of hard to not be afraid when some of them are coming in with their, their con, their creepy little contacts and their fingernails.

I, I think, I think the makeup was doing a lot of the work for me.

David Dylan Thomas: No, that’s awesome. You didn’t have to like act to, like, a styrofoam ball or a green screen. Pretend that’s an alien! No. Yeah, I was, I was really impressed. And it’s so, yeah. One thing we bonded over. Bonded on over early.

 Gauri Mangala: Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas: Like in the space between the table read and the and the, and the film was our love of horror. And you, I wanna thank you if I haven’t already. You turned me on to the Purge films.

Gauri Mangala: Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas: I had no idea. I was very dismissive. I was very snotty about it. And I’m like, oh, the purge, oh, it only gets like 50% on Rotten Tomatoes. It can’t be that good.

Gauri Mangala: It is!

David Dylan Thomas: It’s so good, like the whole series and it evolves. Tell Okay. You tell the, our, our listeners like, tell me what it is. Give a brief synopsis, but tell folks what it is about the Purge that appeals to you.

Gauri Mangala: Yeah. I’m one of the few people that I think has watched all five Purge movies.

Jason Blum, if you ever like, hit me up, dude. But yeah, to me, so the Purge movies, for those that don’t know for the uninformed follows a near distant but near future in the United States where the new founding fathers have sort of taken over. And one of the ways that they plan to keep order is that every year there is a 24 hour purge where all laws are no more, and anything including murder is legal and you’re not gonna get emergency services for those 24 hours. And all five of the movies follow different heroes as they deal with that day. Some, some stories focus on people that are looking to lock down and maybe can’t do that because it’s a horror movie or, you know, sometimes we follow people that are really trying to fight their way through it.

To me, the Purge movies as they go, ’cause they, they, as the movies go, we see a flashback film where it’s the first purge and we understand that, oh, the, the test group for this was marginalized people, people of color. How, how they were brought into this world. By the last movie, The Forever Purge, we’re talking about the global impact. I won’t spoil any of the movies, but like we do end with this conversation about what it means to potentially be an American refugee in the global world.

And to me, these movies have done a great job over the last decade of meeting the political moment and offering us a glimpse into our deepest fears. And that’s what I think horror does really well when it does it. And so, you know, especially The Forever Purge came out at a time where I was as, as an American starting to think about like, is this going well for a long time and Forever Purge takes us there in a way that I think most of our media is a little bit too scared to do.

And honestly, you know, to bring it back to horror as a genre overall, I do think that horror is uniquely situated to do that across the board. I would say that that’s the same case for White Meat of allowing an opportunity for people to not feel like their fear is too much or that it is you know, like, oh, you’re, you’re, you’re really overthinking this.

In horror we’re able to take it to this graphic place, to this terrifying place and hopefully offer audiences either a moment of respite, of saying like, oh, this is, you know this is not too far ’cause it’s horror and I, I get to feel seen in that way. Or we get to offer people, like for the Purge for example.

I’m sure there are people that see those movies and go, oh, I never thought about how scary it must be to feel that marginalized or that isolated or that alone. And they get that opportunity. The last thing I’ll say, and then we can get off the Purge is, I don’t know if you know this, but a few weeks ago Philly was hosting Philly Loves Bowie Week in a bunch of clubs around the area and so I had gone to one of these events and you know, everyone like loves their Bowie songs. Everyone loves the Bowie songs that they know. My introduction to Bowie in terms of like as an actual fan also comes from The Purge because I’m Afraid of Americans by David Bowie is the credit song to, I think the second or third Purge movie, and it was the first time I ever heard the song, and you never hear that song anywhere, obviously. It’s not playing on the radio, but it did play at Bowie night and here I am in the club. “Guys, you don’t understand, the Pur-!” So it, it always finds ways to come back around and I appreciate that I was able to at least impart the, the glory of the franchise to one listener.

David Dylan Thomas: Yes. And I can, and I can add there are at least two people who have seen all five Purge movies.

Gauri Mangala: Yes.

David Dylan Thomas: The last two in particular meet this moment, are this moment, there is a scene in The First Purge where a-

Gauri Mangala: Which is the fourth movie. It sounds like the first movie, but it’s the fourth.

David Dylan Thomas: And it’s also the Blackest Purge. It’s directed by a Black man and it, there’s a scene where effectively federal officers and mercenaries come in and storm public housing and we know how similar that is to now.

Gauri Mangala: Yep.

David Dylan Thomas: And there’s a lot of sort of stuff going on in the Forever Purge that feels very much like Minneapolis right now. So these movies were a little bit science fiction, a little bit ahead of what’s going to happen, but in a way we’re like, because, because the principles they were talking about and the, the pol, the, the politics they were investigating were extremely real, there was always the chance that you, the government does push it to that point.

Gauri Mangala: Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas: And which was the point obviously, of the movies, but it’s like, I, I’m sure they didn’t hope, and I don’t even know if they realized just how on the nose what they were talking about was gonna end up being because the thing that I think the Purge does better than almost any other horror franchise of the past, like 20 years, it is some of the best class satire I have seen in, you know, it is, you know, Triangle of Sadness level, class satire. But in horror. Right? But, and, and over like many films, which means he gets to explore some dimensions there. But that, so that was one of those like, like I love schlock because schlock has this opportunity to both be disregarded and secretly be really meaningful.

Gauri Mangala: And I’ll say, you know, to your point about satire and your point about, First Purge being the, the Blackest horror movie, they did take, like there’s a set satirical take on the Purge. There’s, you have the Black Purge, which is a set satirical comedy film.

David Dylan Thomas: Oh, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gauri Mangala: On The Purge.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gauri Mangala: And, and to me that, I mean, the thesis of that is like, well, Black people just wouldn’t go outside. Like, that would be, that would be what we would do. We wouldn’t try to play in this game at all. That’s your, that’s your weird white business. But. And then, you know, The Purge almost makes a commentary.

I, I wonder if The First Purge was actually created somewhat to say like, okay, let’s, let’s, let’s be in conversation.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. It’s, it’s, exactly, exactly.

Gauri Mangala: And I think it’s, I I do wonder if they knew what they’re playing at. To me, there is such a direct response, like the new founding fathers, not to take it there, but like the new founding fathers idea, it’s, it’s completely based on the NRA, right?

Like they’re saying, oh, sure. If the NRA was able to take hold politically. Which they have, like, you know, they would, this is what they would do with it. And so I do think that for as long as horror is a genre that’s, you know, playing in, how dark can humanity get and how divorced can we become from our own humanity?

As long as the global world is also asking that same question, I think horror is gonna continue to be a little bit too close to the moment. Because, because, because how much farther can you get, frankly, than, than what we’re in, in some way.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. And, and I promise we’ll get to your play in a second, but this is, there’s a really rich vein here ‘cause as you, as you mentioned, the global aspect of it, I start to think about, well how do other cultures treat this same concept? And I think about Battle Royale, I think about Squid Game which are all one version or another of, we’re gonna set up a scenario where citizens eliminate other citizens.

And I think they all are dealing with it with their particular cultural aesthetic and political concerns. There’s a great video out there about how watching Squid Game hits different if you’re actually from South Korea. There’s a lot of South Korean, recent South Korean history that’s kind of folded in there that you might miss if you’re not familiar.

But so there’s that universal universality of, okay, a society can get to the point where it, it’s okay quote unquote, to kill each other. Or we can create the the parameters for it. But how we get there and how that manifests will be unique from culture to culture. And I think that’s, which is another way of saying The Purge are some of the most American horror ever made.

Gauri Mangala: For sure. For sure. I mean, honestly, I think that’s what it is more than anything is that it does feel. Horror that speaks to a political moment does feel like the American tradition. And I would say White Meat plays into that and like exactly the same, right? It’s, it’s our, our fears, the things that scare Americans are so politically tied that, you know, even let’s talk, like, let’s talk about Sinners, right? Like Sinners is another example to me where I’m like, I have never felt the same affinity with the vampire genre as I did in that film, because in that film, Coogler allows us to see vampires for what their like real life counterpart is to us as Americans.

Right? Like I don’t think making vampires this like scary European, you know, a charismatic dude over here is enough for us. We need to understand what they’re actually looking to take from us. And, and you know, I, I think Coogler links it so well to the Klan, links it so well, I mean, even what he is doing with Irish heritage and, and how he’s speaking about colonialism.

I, I think he gives us something that we can sink our teeth into in a way, in a way that, like I, I don’t know if previous vampire horror genre has hit on the head as much. That being said, I I, I do think we’re entering a realm now where we are looking at like political horror, satire as a genre. I don’t think we’re there, but it’s a genre I’m very excited about.

David Dylan Thomas: Oh no, absolutely. And in a way it’s always been in the mix. Like politics has been in the chat for horror from the beginning, but increasingly what I’ve seen is a trend toward just being explicit about that. Like not trying to hide it, not trying to couch it, but being like, no, we’re gonna make a movie about slavery. No, we’re gonna make a movie about racism. We’re gonna make a movie about objectifying women. We’re just, that’s that thesis statement in the title you know, and, and the Purge movies did that as well, but, what I did wanna say that you’re pointing out that I hadn’t really thought about before is, you’re right, vampires historically have been aristocratic, right?

When we think about like what Sinners does, that is relatively new. I mean, I can’t think of another example off the top of my head, but certainly it’s rare is the working class vampire. In fact, nobody in this film is anything but working class, whether it’s the Klan, whether it’s the vampires, whether it’s the people trying to start a juke joint.

They have varying levels of money, but they’re all not at the top of the food chain in American society by any stretch of the imagination. And so there’s even a meta commentary about how capitalism makes us all squabble amongst each other without ever even mentioning, right, the people who have put us in that position, there’s a whole other level of commentary there.

I, so speaking of art, that speaks to a moment I wanted, the other reason I wanted to have you on is I just recently saw and thank you for the invitation a table read of a play that you wrote which I thought was fantastic. So tell folks the name of it, tell folks the synopsis like, let us know what’s going on. ZZZZZ

Gauri Mangala: Yeah. So this is a play called Badmaash: An Internet-y Play. And this was I developed this play over the last, about year and a half with the Philadelphia Asian Performing Artists playwriting project. And so we all, I came in, I had applied with a different play entirely, and as soon as I saw the people in the room, I actually knew that this was what I wanted to write about.

So this play focuses on our main character, Rani Sharma who is a first gen Indian American, much like myself, gen Z, all the things. And she’s looking to build up a reputation for herself as a political activist online on a podcast, on, you know, social media. And she’s given an opportunity to expand her reach.

And in that, you know, without spoiling too much, but I think it’s kind of obvious in there the whole time is she shares some emotional truths that maybe don’t have real truth behind it. And what we see throughout the play is the personal and public fallout of that. And really the play is asking a lot of questions about what it means to be authentic to yourself and to your culture or cultures.

Which is, is a question that I’m often questioning, especially when those multiple cultures come at direct opposition to each other. What it means to be a good person, what it means to be a good brown person, what it means to be a good activist in this moment. I think all questions that we’re constantly bombarded with.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. And I think that’s, I don’t know. So, so folks, if when you get the chance to see this, ’cause I’m sure this is gonna have a bright future. When you get the chance to see this, ’cause it’s, it’s, it’s amazing. And one, so one of the things I think is definitely explored in the play that I think of as just sort, sort of just I’m curious about is I wonder if a chief concern right now amongst liberals is that, am I a good liberal? Am I a good activist? Am I a good like, as, as, as being the same question is, is am I, am I a good person? Like am I being a good, what is what is required of me in this moment?

And I think that’s where we get a lot of performative allyship, blah, blah, blah, blah, but as a concern, as a thing to even be concerned, I wonder if how much of that existed in previous movements, right? Like were civil rights workers hanging out in church, being like, am I being a good civil rights worker? Right? Like I wonder if there’s something peculiar about this age of social media, about all of us being pop stars to a certain extent with reputations that are public to a certain extent if that is amplifying that concern.

Cause I’m sure it was a concern just on some level, but I’m wondering if like, when people were fighting for freedom in Poland, like were they also being like, I wonder if I’m being a good enough activist? What am I, what do my fellow activists think of me? Are they gonna think I’m not being real enough? Like is that a relatively recent or peculiarly American or America 2025 kind of concern? And if so, why? You know?

Gauri Mangala: Yeah. It also, I do think it has something to do with our specific purity culture of this moment. When I say our, I mean American, I mean liberal, I mean, I mean Gen Z to an extent. Like there, there is a clear, and also with the internet, there’s a, there’s a such a fast turnaround right, on how things can be analyzed and the goodness of the choice can be analyzed. I think a big one was. God, this must have been like a year or two ago now. I don’t, I don’t even remember. But there was, I think in line with a award show or the MET Gala, right? There’s been these conversations that have been happening over the last two years, I think, about big American media moments and how they may or may not be positioned as a distraction from a global issue.

And I think a big one that happened. I can’t remember what the American event was. I wanna say it was at in the Met Gala or one of the big four award shows a movement happened on social media to block out that noise and keep focus on the, the genocide in Gaza and a graphic started going around on social media that said All Eyes on Rafa, and people were posting it. Very quickly after that happened, a couple things happened. One, people started identifying the graphic as AI generated, which obviously created some infighting about like, what is the, what, what should we be doing? Da, da, da, dah. And then the same conversation that we had, you know, in 2020 when the blackout Tuesday squares happened was this question of like, is all of us posting this graphic with just copy AI generated copy, no actual real information, is that blocking out the noise just as uselessly as us posting about what people are wearing at the Met Gala?

And so we have this sort of infighting happening and in that people are like posting about the all eyes and like all throughout all this, if you’re doing that and you’re doing that, we actually haven’t shared any real information. And then the question becomes like, what is the point? What is the actual goal of sharing the real information?

I would argue that the goal is to encourage, you know, if it’s American audience, it’s American audience to give money to the cause. But other than that, is it, you know, is it just you know, a slap on the wrist for being American and for paying your taxes? I don’t know.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah.

Gauri Mangala: For a lot of people. And so I think like that’s a big one for me about like the infighting of just what to post, if to post on social media.

I think boycotting culture has become very of this, of this feeling as well. And to your question about were we doing this during the civil rights movement, part of me feels like the people involved in the civil rights movement did not have the time to care and also understood that like this work is going to be dirty and imperfect because we’re up against a system.

Whereas now I think, frankly, because we have people involved in this movement now who really could decide at any point to hop off and their life wouldn’t change one way or another, I think there’s this feeling of like, okay, but if we’re gonna do this, can we do it in a right way where I can still go to Thanksgiving with my Trump supporting uncle, and it’s not a problem.

Like that’s, you know, I think that’s what it’s, I think at the end of the day, I think that there are people, and this is not, and in some ways I’m doing it too now, because in some ways I’m saying, well, your fight isn’t as intrinsic to your survival as my fight is to mine. I, I think that’s where we see that difference.

And so I sit here and maybe post nothing, and maybe there’s judgment from that end because maybe my politics feel in line, but frankly for me it’s like, I’m not going to post about ICE as much as my white compatriot might, because at the end of the day I’m a little bit more scared of ICE, than my white compatriot is.

So I have to make my choices also for my own survival and what, you know, might target me in the end. And what is a social media post at all?

David Dylan Thomas: Right, right. It’s, it’s interesting too, ’cause it seems like we’re trying to create activist etiquette in real time. That it’s as much about a social faux pas as it is about, did you in fact stop this person from getting shot?

Did you in fact make it harder for ICE to do their job? Right? That metric isn’t taken as seriously, or at least isn’t as a reactionary a metric. Like no one’s stopping to think, hey, did this have an impact of so what? As, what does it feel like to see this. What’s my initial reaction to seeing this? That is the thing I’m reacting to, versus, oh, let’s do three dimensional chess and be like, okay, what’s the actual impact of this, that, or the other?

It’s not a, it’s not a performance review.

Gauri Mangala: No, but it does feel that way. It feels, you know, even now I see, especially after the most recent, ICE execution of a, of a, of a US citizen, I’m, I’m seeing folks posting like if you’re being, if you’re still silent, you’re the problem. Right. And like that again, to me feels like a moment of like, and, and to, and to prove your politics to me does what for the greater good? And part of that I think is ’cause we’re all deeply online. I think a lot of us, especially from 2020 on, feel like our politics come out deeply, deeply online. There are absolutely the people that are out on the streets protesting, especially in Minneapolis, but we’re seeing these movements happening in Philly too.

But, but those things to me are also often from people that do not care about the social media element. And I respect them a hell of a lot for it. They’re out. They’re the ones out in the trenches saying, actually, no, I’m trying to make physical change happen. That to me is the civil rights movement in 2026, I think the social media thing is no different to me, and I think we have to make the distinction of it, frankly. I, that to me is no different than the people in the 1960s that are like, well, I wish it was better, but it’s not.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. And, and, and not, not for nothing. But like I’ve, I’ve studied deeply the Letter from Birmingham Jail, which I think is one of the most important like social, political documents ever written, and that is a core thesis he has is that white liberals are more dangerous than the KKK. He literally says that. And in in part it’s because of that, it is because of the incrementalism that they are encouraging. Which was incrementalism that was tantamount to silence. I mean, they were the ones like, you should be saying something was properly directed at anyone, it would be directed at them.

And we have seen in the church today, we do have churches coming out and saying, hey, if you’re, if you claim to be a Christian body and you’re not talking about this, I really don’t think you’re Christian. Like, there’s been some really eloquent stuff written about that.

But no, I think you’re right. I think there’s a certain, there’s one element of how close are you to the problem? How much at risk are you, when, what are you risking when you say X? Like to me, a metric of allyship is risk. If you are not risking anything by acting, there’s a degree to which, and it’s not, it’s not a a, a one-to-one, but there’s a degree to which you might be able to be more of an ally, I’ll put it that way.

And the other element I think is, this degree of, I guess it’s kind of the same thing. Like I’m, I’m thinking about what it’s like you said, it’s like, what, how much am I personally, what, what happens if I don’t speak out?

Gauri Mangala: Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas: Right. And, and, and am I okay if I don’t? And am I, and I feel like that’s where the etiquette needs to be drawn up, ’cause I feel like there is probably an agreeable upon on. That’s a wierd phrase level of like, okay, here’s how much the people who aren’t affected by this should really be talking right now. Here’s the degree to which they’re making it about themselves, right?

Because there’s this other line I remember when I, I take your pick of horrible thing that has happened to women in the past 10,000 years, but it had happened. People were on media where social media were talking about. I didn’t say anything because I thought if I spoke as a man, it would be taking up oxygen from a conversation that women should be having and it’ll be some dude butting in where he doesn’t belong. However, I had multiple women friends say, hey, where, where are all the dudes? They should be talking about this. So I’m like, okay, hey. And I said something and I said, the reason I didn’t say anything is because I thought I’d be sucking up oxygen where I shouldn’t be, but I’ve been told by the people who are actually affected by this want this, so this is what I’m gonna do. And to me, that is kind of like as good as any, a modus operandi to say, I’m gonna do what I think is best, but I will defer to the wisdom of the person who’s actually in danger.

Gauri Mangala: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that works. And I think that also like my, my thing with American democracy as it stands right now is that social media and the internet has become, I think, really the, the government safety of like, well then they’ll just take it out on each other. It’s what you were saying earlier, right, about like in Sinners, everybody’s working class. Right? They’re just gonna take it out on each other online and then, and then we can do whatever we want forever. And so part of me is also like anything that takes the focus off of that. You know, one of my friends has a joke. If you’re drunk on a night out, don’t call your ex, call your senator.

David Dylan Thomas: I love it.

Gauri Mangala: I think like. And I’m not, and, and I don’t even know at some point, you know, when, when Philly SEPTA cuts were happening, I, I was sending, you know, emails to senators and, and, and dealing with that, like, just even that feels useless to me at some times. But it’s the thing that we have to do for the numbers that we have to have.

And, you know, hopefully everyone votes in the midterms and all those kinds of things. But there’s a part of me that that is like, if we look at the civil rights movement. If we look at any of these other more successful movements, we see that they did not use the government’s tools to, to, to make you can’t, you can’t.

So, so, so to me, I think that, that any of it, we can sit here and go, is this the right way to do it? Is this the right way to post? Is this the right way to, but all of it’s wrong because you’re sitting in your home and you’re posting on the internet. Like none of it works. I think the thing that I’m thinking about a lot now as an art maker is okay if, if I believe, if I truly believe that I’ve chosen this field because this is where my fight is, I need to prove to myself that like, this is what my goals for 2026 is like, I need to prove to myself that there is fight to have in, in this line of work. And so part of that for me was, you know writing this play where I was interested to see if there would be audiences that were prickly to this idea of like a, a, a leftist activist who is like not doing it right because I think that that is a lot of leftist activists right now online.

And, you know, there was a little bit of that. I think I saw like some of those sensitivities come out from certain groups that saw it, which I was like, great. I I want that. And maybe more. And then another realm that this is coming up for me right now is, you know, at, at.

I’m in grad school at Villanova and I’m working right now with a project that’s happening in the Performance Studies department at that school. And we’re talking about creating a piece this semester that would talk about what’s happening with ICE specifically. And part of that, you know, the idea is like, okay, is this something that can happen outside on campus? Is this something that’s going to appeal to students that maybe aren’t talking about this issue at all? It’s going out of the echo chamber of, you know, this leftist bubble, that for the most part when I go to see theater, whether that is me as an audience member going to see something or me as a practitioner presenting something to an audience.

The people that are coming to see theater are so self-selective, especially the types of theater that they see, especially in a time where we don’t have a ton of, you know income to just spend willy-nilly on theater tickets. It’s a very politically self-selective audience. Right? I’m not very often in a room where I’m like, I’m gonna change someone, change someone’s mind about my humanity today.

Because for the most part, they’re coming in with that already. But I think with some of these more nuanced issues, with these situations of get up, like sit down or get up these questions. I think that’s what we need to be bringing into our theaters, into our movie theaters these days. Because really if we’re, if we know that we’re mostly talking to liberals when we’re showing a film or where you know, writing plays, especially the types of things that you and I write that are usually from such a liberal point of view, I think it actually is getting down and dirty into the things that are dividing us as a group.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah.

Gauri Mangala: Because you look at the last election, you look at where we are, that’s our problem.

If we get on the same side of it, they can’t win. Hate can’t win. But because we’re sitting here going, well, you didn’t say it right. Like, I think that is what we’re having the issue about. And so my focus this year is to write things that say everyone shut up and just do, and just, you know, fight really.

Unfortunately that’s, that’s where I think we’re at. But I think we have been put into such a. And it hasn’t helped. We all saw COVID and I think even now with ICE, people are like, well, I should just stay at home. And that is a very, I understand. That’s how I feel. And that is a very understandable fear to have.

But it is not what we can instill into everybody.

David Dylan Thomas: Right. And I think part of the problem, the advantage fascism always has is that organization is difficult and part of the reason organization is difficult is, is because effective organization requires multiple roles and often shifting roles, and it requires multiple people.

It requires a body of, say, a million people to say, okay. This group over here is gonna stay at home and be part of a general strike. This group over here is gonna go out in the streets and block the streets. This group over here is going to be the supply chain for all the food and medical help all the people on general strike are gonna need, which needs to be planned out for six months in advance.

Oh, right. This group over here is gonna plan for six months. Right. Like it is doable. And if you do it there’s literally nothing the powers that be can do. Like you can shut people down that way. But look at South Africa. Look at India. Look at the Philippines. Like there’s many, many examples of how coordinated nonviolent action can actually be twice as effective as just shooting everybody.

But but it requires coordination. And getting large groups of people to do anything. Getting large groups of people to go to a play. Just go to a play. It’s here. This is the time it’s here. You all have to do literally the same thing. Here’s a link. Some of you don’t have to like sit in this row here and then another group has to be over here knitting.

No, just go here and sit down and watch. Hell. It’s even gonna be so cheap. We’re not gonna make any money. Just do that. I heard it might rain like, it’s like, so, so, so like, if that is difficult, imagine how difficult it is to do what is effectively like Alexander’s campaign through Asia, you know?

Gauri Mangala: Yeah. And it’s, and I think, and that’s why unfortunately, you know, I look around and say, well, it’s gonna have to unfortunately get worse like when US citizens started getting executed by ICE, I started seeing people care about ICE.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah.

Gauri Mangala: Which is not a conversation everyone’s ready for.

David Dylan Thomas: No, no.

Gauri Mangala: And it’s one that we can have in a couple years, but it’s gonna have to like, it’s going to have to get worse into those ways because unfortunately humans are inherently selfish creatures and they do need to see that they are on the chopping block for, for us to care. You know, like for me for my fam, like my parents are immigrants, right? Like we, we’ve been new, right? Like we, we know what’s on the, and the only thing that changed for me between then and now is now my mom’s, you know sending me my birth certificate so that I can keep it on me.

Yeah, like that’s like, that’s where we’re moving to and where we’re at. But we were always there for her, right? It’s just now, now that we’re like, oh, maybe, maybe, maybe my accent isn’t Philly enough for like, maybe I gotta, but for other folks, I think they do need to see Renee Good’s face in order to find their empathy.

It’s really unfortunate and I think it’s something that white liberals need to unpack in their own time, and I frankly do not have the time to wait for them to get on the boat to figure it out. But unfortunately, white liberals have the same problem that white conservatives have. They need to see their own face to have empathy for the moment in terms of what you’re saying about like, how are we gonna get everyone on the same page. I think for as long as we are all on social media, getting our information that way, that like that is going to be the case. I am super excited by politicians like Mamdani for how his ability to showcase how he is out in the community. Most of his social media videos is him talking to somebody else out on the street or in, in a forum, and we’re seeing where he is in New York City doing what he’s doing. And I think that’s super important rather than him being like on live, talking to people online, which is totally a method he could do and a method we’ve seen other people from his, from his end of the political arena do.

But it doesn’t always work ’cause then everyone sits in their homes on their zoom with AOC and we complain about how bad it is and then nothing happens. I don’t know how that changes for as long as the internet becomes a growing and growing beast, frankly, especially with the influx of AI. I am waiting for liberals to like boycott the internet.

It’s not gonna happen. But frankly, like there’s a point to me where I’m like, that is the only way to an extent, you know, it is the only way to say, I won’t, I won’t take your propaganda anymore. I won’t take your lies anymore. You’re not gonna pretend that we’re all isolated anymore. Like that is a big part of it.

They wanna make you feel like an individual and isolated and that you can get everything you need from this screen and they can get all your information from the screen, which means we can make the information, say whatever it wants. It sounds very conspiracy theorist, but it’s also what is happening.

You don’t, you don’t think that like we’re gonna get to a point where everything you read can be targeted to however you’re gonna wanna hear it. Even if that’s not how the world is. Like y’all, we have 1984 and we’ve had it for a minute. Like I think we need to see what’s happening. But then at the same time, you know, there’s people that think that fascism started in the United States in 2025 and they didn’t.

So it’s, it’s a lot of like, are we gonna, I think part of also the struggle is within the liberal spectrum, you have folks that are sitting here going, we have to start running now. We’ve had to start running, but I’m waiting for you to put your shoes on still. And I don’t know how much longer I can wait for that.

David Dylan Thomas: Well, it’s interesting because, and you’re the first person who sort of like brought up this notion that like the, the internet is the problem and the problem with that is the internet is also the solution, right? The only reason we know about the killings in Minneapolis is because of the internet.

Gauri Mangala: Yeah, yeah.

David Dylan Thomas: Like the same technology that’s trying to lie to us about the killings is the technology that brought us the killings.

Gauri Mangala: Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas: And the tools that people are using to organize because the resistance in Minneapolis is tight as shit.

Gauri Mangala: Yep.

David Dylan Thomas: They got the people with the whistles, they got the people with the thing, and they’re able to do a very difficult thing, which is to mobilize autonomously. Like you don’t need a central commander. It is decentralized in the best way possible so that whenever ICE fucks around, they’re there to say, okay, you see some ICE people, you do this, this, this, blah, blah boom, and you’re already mobilized before ICE even knows what happened.

Like that level, that is some fucking Viet Cong level shit. That is some fucking French resistance shit. Like that is the type of thing you need when your enemy has better weapons. But all of that is coordinated through the internet. All of that is coordinated through text chains. If you wanna have a general strike, you’re gonna need some level of communication.

At the very least, a text chain or phone tree. So it’s sort of one of those. And the other thing I wanted to say is it’s like. There are absolutely portions of white liberals who will not stand up until they see a white liberal killed. But then you have all the people who showed up at the airport after Trump in his first term, right outta the gate is like, oh, we’re gonna ban people from these countries.

There were a shit ton of white people who were not affected by that ban. No one they knew were affected by that ban. They were gonna be fine, and they showed up anyway. So there’s a portion of the society that’s already there, and it’s like, part of what makes it so complicated is it’s not consistent.

It’s frustratingly not consistent. And so not only do you have to organize these various groups of people to be able to ideally, like they do in Minneapolis, autonomously organize and say, I’m gonna be communications officer, I’m gonna be a medical officer. I’m gonna be, you know what I mean? On the fly.

You need to do that in a population where maybe only half of them are even ready to take that jump. Like that to me. I mean, that to me is why Minneapolis is so remarkable. Because they didn’t train for this shit.

Gauri Mangala: But Minneapolis, I think has like been built for, like Minneapolis did not, in my view what we’re seeing now is because Minneapolis didn’t stop with everything that they, like they.

David Dylan Thomas: So you’re talking about George Floyd?

Gauri Mangala: Oh yeah.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. No, that’s a good point. That’s a good point.

Gauri Mangala: Talking about. Minneapolis was who we were. Remember we were like Minneapolis, like is who developed the system in which we were, we were protesting and if they wanna call it rioting. Rioting. In 2020, Minneapolis. Who set this tone?

And I think Minneapolis, like Philly for example, right? Like ICE is in Philly right now and is saying, okay, let’s look at what’s happening in Minneapolis.

David Dylan Thomas: Yep.

Gauri Mangala: Are we doing that? No, but like to me, Minneapolis is who we absolutely need to be looking at as a whole country because they said, you did this shit to us once. You’re not doing it again.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah, no, you’re right. Like and, and it reminds me of how some of the best prepared folks for COVID had created the information networks and support networks they needed during AIDS. So San Francisco’s response, San Francisco’s response to COVID was on fucking point.

Gauri Mangala: Wow.

David Dylan Thomas: And I believe a large part of that is because they had developed communication systems what do you call it? Tracking tracking systems, healthcare systems, like all of that stuff they developed in response to AIDS. So when it came, when COVID came around, they were like, oh, remember that thing we did?

Boom. Like.

Gauri Mangala: Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas: Here’s the playbook.

Gauri Mangala: And honestly, I think that that’s something that’s happening overall, I think we’re seeing that with like hurricane disaster relief, right? Like I think overall in the last five years, the thing that I have learned is that the government is, the federal government is not somebody that we as Americans can rely on in the way that maybe we grew up thinking it worked.

And so our job now for, for those of us who are like stepping into this, for those of us who are realizing that the system is not working anymore, we have to develop our own community-based systems to protect each other. And that that is on, you know, as a professional, you know, I make my money as an administrator for an education program in a theater.

So for us it’s okay. We now we have to think about how we are offering programs and resources to our students to ensure their wellbeing, not just from like a social emotional learning perspective, but we opened up a food bank when, when, when SNAP benefits were going away and we haven’t taken away yet because we know that our same students who are looking for us for a theater education might have a hard time finding something to eat right now.

You know, like those are things that we are having to expand our, our reach. And it’s something what we wanna do, right. But is something that I think we all have to do across the board in terms of like our community. You know, you brought up this idea of like, we can’t even get people to come see a play, but I would see across the board theater companies understanding that their job is not just to get their audiences to come pay tickets, to see their show.

You’re building communities where people can be together and can converse because less and less do we have third places, spaces where, where you can talk about what we’re talking about here and feel like there’s a way forward. And that’s why people are on the internet, you know, that’s why they’re looking for their community that way.

And I think what I’m saying about the internet is that like it’s just, you’re not going to find that human to human connection. You’re not gonna find, find that path forward on your Instagram story.

David Dylan Thomas: Right. Right.

Gauri Mangala: You do have to take it that step forward. You do have to get outta your house. Or find an online community that’s like a legitimate faces, Zoom online community.

But I, I, I think that for a lot of folks, they’re like discovering that now in these, like I think with Hurricane Eileen, we saw it with what’s happening right now in Minneapolis and in Philly and all these other cities we’re seeing, we saw it in 2020 and I think, I hope that what comes out of this outside of, I’m sure a lot of destruction is us as individual citizens, feeling like we have a path forward beyond voting every two years.

David Dylan Thomas: Right, right. I mean, it’s interesting, like we, this always happens with us. We’ll start out talking about art and very quickly start talking about politics. But I think that’s us. Like, I think that as But I, but as artists, I think that’s us too.

So I want to close out by giving you an opportunity to talk about especially in how you have developed your play.

Gauri Mangala: Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas: Like how you think about the role of the artist in a moment like this?

Gauri Mangala: Yeah. I mean, to me, I, I felt as if. I, you know, everything we’re talking about here are the things I’m thinking about all the time as a person, and I wanted to write something that allowed for conversation for other people that might feel that way, but didn’t have language for it.

I think the skill of a writer is to, to have words for things that feel unexplainable and beyond that, I feel specifically, you know, as a non-black, non-white person of color in this country, especially one that’s the children of immigrants, I feel very like I don’t exactly know where to go at any given point.

And that play to me was also trying to articulate the feeling of, I know what I believe intrinsically as a person, and I don’t know where my fight is best right now. Like, I think what you’re saying as well about, you know, like, I’m a man and there’s this moment for women and I don’t know what to do. Like, that’s often where I feel like in 2020 it’s like, I don’t, I, what’s helpful, what’s helpful, you know?

And I think, I think the answer for myself and for, I think a lot of artists right now is to hopefully create something that asks those questions or brings up the topic of discussion and then offer opportunities like this one. Like, you know, hopefully when this play has a big life, a talk back where like folks can talk about these things.

What I always used to think Philly theater and Philly art did really well, and I hope we continue to do it, is that our work is usually intrinsically tied to activism.

David Dylan Thomas: Mm.

Gauri Mangala: And there’s hopefully, usually a call to action at the end of it. And my hope is that my art continues to grow in that aspect. The, the end call, whatever it may be.

My hope is that art continues to partner with political activists that, you know, hopefully we start to see. I would, I would love to see theater where it’s like, I mean, this is a very, clean version of this, but like it’s a beach cleanup. But then we have a show about. You know what I mean?

I wanna see things. I wanna see moments like that where art is tied directly to what we can do rather than an existing in this vacuum. I think that there’s this ostrich effect, that’s like, put our heads down and see something funny. And we’re seeing that across the board, right? Like we’re seeing trans folks getting their rights stripped away across the board. And the one like trans art that’s surviving on the commercial end is Oh Mary, a comedic play, right? Like we, right now, the marginalized folks get to exist very well as clowns and entertainers, and I really want us to continue to subvert that expectation.

I think the fact that Sinners is the most awarded yeah, nominations at the Oscar, like I, I think that that tells us where we’re going and I hope that we continue to go there and I hope it continues to be in an artful and authentic way without caring about money grabs ’cause we see from Sinners that like it can be a very wealthy product, but I think that came out of them caring about the quality up until the point where then they could care about the marketing and they could care about the this and the that. But it, it was artful and it was politically sound all the way in its creation. And that’s why I think it had the impact it did not because Michael B Jordan’s in it, although yeah, it doesn’t hurt. You can get him, doesn’t hurt. Especially if you can get him to play two, maybe three characters. It doesn’t, it doesn’t hurt. But yeah, that’s where there, that’s where it is for me. I mean, I’m curious for you as well, the same thing.

David Dylan Thomas: Oh no, I, well, first off, I love your idea of like having the art and then having an actual activity with the art, which makes me think I should do a screening of White Meat: Appetizer and then like, okay guys, let’s go eat a bunch of white people.

Gauri Mangala: That’s a way to, I mean, that, that’s making change, you know? I mean, that’s making an impact one way or another for sure.

David Dylan Thomas: Alright, we’re gonna go eat some ICE agents. Yeah, but.

 Gauri Mangala: There you go. There you go.

David Dylan Thomas: But but no, I love that. And, and it’s, and it’s reminding me that I’m seeing a lot of, in Philly in particular, there is the idea that art commerce, tech, whatever it is, is usually tied to some social aspect, right?

Even something SEER Interactive is heavily involved in the community, right? And that’s just a search engine optimization company. But they’re like, no, we’re gonna do all these other things. You have coworking spaces like Indy Hall, it’s like. No, we’re not gonna be WeWork. We’re gonna be like actually a huge community third space.

So the idea, the, one of the things I love about Philly is it seems like you can’t do anything and not have some social, like, it, it just, it just comes with it. Like people don’t have to be convinced. Right? And the same with art.

But the, the other thing, and we, we talked about this before, but I love about your play is that you are, as an artist, wrestling with a question you don’t actually have the answer to. Like that to me is where you get some of the most interesting art. It’s where you get some of the most interesting horror. Like me as a filmmaker, I like to wrestle. I’m also wrestling with something I don’t know the answer to. Right? Like, so I, we talked about how with White Meat the feature and to a lesser extent, the short, like one of the questions I’m tackling is. what does white America owe Black America?

Gauri Mangala: Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas: I don’t actually know the answer to that. I don’t even know if that’s like the right question, but that is something.

But that’s, to me, what makes it worth making art about is because that is a fantastic, art is a fantastic tool for exploring unresolved issues. And what I love about your play is you are create presenting a character who’s doing very understandable things that. I like, you can sort of judge her. Yeah. But at the same time you’re like, I don’t know that I would do that differently.

And even if I did it differently, I don’t know how I would do it differently. Like it’s, it is, she is, her situation is asking fundamentally tricky questions and in a way that allows you like to stay very present because she’s doing this podcast and she’s doing a lot of sort of like talkbacks to far right people.

And that’s always unfortunately something we kind of have material for. But that whole project, as we’ve been discussing this whole time, is fraught with moral dilemmas. And so, so that’s, that’s how I think about at least my, in terms of making my art. That’s how I think about it. It’s like, what’s the thing that I personally struggle with that I’m not a hundred percent that, that, that challenges my moral certainty, I’ll put it that way. Right? Yeah. It’s like, oh, I’ve got it all fair. I know exactly how America should be. It’s like let me, let me be honest with myself and then make the art right. But then as far as the role the art plays, like, I think that’s largely out of our control.

And I think the best outcome and what I’ve seen happen so far is two things. One, the people helping you make the art now suddenly have this outlet for expression of their frustration and even for political activism, there’s a degree to which what we are doing is activism. And then ask any proper activist, they will tell you, I need people. And again, go to the people who are actually doing the work to find out what you should do. I need people who are out there saying, this is what I’m best at. I’m gonna use it for the cause. That is actually the thing. So, honestly, unless the thing you’re best at is posting on Instagram, no, posting on Instagram is not the best use of your time.

Are you good at, are you good at knitting? Okay. Knit some clothes for the people who are freaking out on the front lines. Are you good at getting groceries? Great. Get groceries for the person whose husband’s in jail now, or whose wife’s in jail now, like. The thing you are good at is the thing that the, the movement needs.

And that is a hopeful right, kind of way of looking at it. But I wouldn’t be saying it if like a hundred activists hadn’t already said it. You know what I mean? So that to me is sort of like, as an artist, this is what I’m doing in, in the context of politics, but the impact of that. Right. That is largely out of my hands.

And, and like I said, there are choices I can make. Like, hey, the history they’re taking down from President’s House, I’m literally gonna put in the credits of the movie. Like that is a deliberate, very direct political choice.

Gauri Mangala: Yes.

David Dylan Thomas: But how people are going to react when they see my bared soul of, Hey, should we eat white people?

I don’t know. You tell me. Right. That reaction, that discussion. All I can do is, is invite it. And I think that is, as artists, that’s one of our, our, our skill sets is we’re really good at writing invitations, I’ll put it that way, right?

Gauri Mangala: Yes, yes. I think that’s so true. And I think. You know, with your film in particular, it comes back to what we were saying right at the beginning about the horror genre, but there is such a deep truth to how far that idea goes, right?

This idea of like, I don’t know what to do with this like reparations are due. Is this the option? Like, can I take it all the way there and present it to you? I think it’s also offering audiences, especially like non-black audiences who maybe haven’t had these musings in the back of their head their whole lives when they’re offered that from beginning to end.

Your, your proposal let’s say from beginning to end, they are then left to consider, okay. If not that, then what? And to me, any good art is art that stays with you. You know, you, you know, when you leave a movie and you feel like, kind of like, you’ve just like taken party drugs or something, you’re like, I don’t know what’s happened to me, but I’m different now.

And I think that that is what good art, especially in the political sphere, should be doing. It should be asking you to question your values, question what you stand for, because honestly, I think that that’s, that’s the thing that needs to happen in this moment. I think there are not enough Americans right now thinking I think I need to rethink what I believe.

And I think that’s why we’re in the moment we’re in because I think a lot of people have been like, I am right. This is the moment. And art that can set can upset you and disturb you a little bit. Art like yours where you’re like, well, obviously we probably shouldn’t be eating white people allows audiences to be like we should do that. I think hopefully my work to the same extent, you know what you’re talking about, of like there are audiences that are gonna come away from that going, why am I judging Rani, even though she feels so similar to me? What would I do differently?

I think starts to a, allow people to ask those questions of like, is the thing I am doing in my life in line with the feelings that I had? Receiving this piece of art. I think more art should be allowing audiences to have that experience ’cause to me that I think is the point of consuming art in the first place is to understand who you are deeper at the end of it.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. I think that’s a great, I think that’s a great line to end on, Gauri. Thank you so much. Is, are there places people can get in touch or keep, keep up with all the stuff you’re up to?

Gauri Mangala: Yeah. You can follow me on Instagram. My handle is at, hi, I’m Garri.

H-I-I-M-G-A-U-R-I. And I’m on there all the time. Would love to, would love to connect with folks. Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas: Thanks so much and for the White Meat Podcast, I’m David Dylan Thomas, and we will see you next time.