Several important topics this week as we talk to White Meat producer Stephanie Malson about what she believes makes for a good film producer, the experience of being a Black woman in film, and what she learned about the Haitian Revolution by helping make a documentary about Haitian painter Ulrick Jean-Pierre, who through his work has documented the revolution for decades.

Listen to “The White Meat Podcast” on Spreaker.

Here’s the transcript:

David Dylan Thomas: Welcome to the White Meat podcast. I’m your host, David Dylan Thomas, and I am the writer and director of a movie called White Meat, which we’re working on. The basic premise is that underneath a very quiet park in Philadelphia lie the bodies of hundreds of enslaved people. One night, they all come back from the dead as zombies, but they only eat white people.

So you are joining us on this journey to make this movie. And today, my guest is one of our partners on this journey, Stephanie Malson. Stephanie, introduce yourself.

Stephanie Malson: Hi, my name is Stephanie Malson. I am a writer, producer, director, a woman of many traits. Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas: So, so tell me a little bit about your journey into film.

Is this something you’re going to be helping us, you’re, you’re currently helping us produce White Meat. You helped us with the early budgeting and you’re continuing to help us out with fundraising. So tell me a little bit about your journey into filmmaking.

Stephanie Malson: Hmm. I don’t think that this is something that I had intent or, you know, some people have like long lifelong desires to be filmmakers.

I don’t think this is something that I, as a young person wanted to do or thought about doing. But maybe in my mid-twenties, early thirties, which is from what I hear rather late for filmmakers, I was in grad school and happened to be assigned a class called like digital media making. And at the time we had DV cameras, the little tapes. And in that class we had to write, shoot, and edit three projects and in a small way, that was the first time that I was like, oh, this is definitely something I want to do.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. So what of those were they all kind of equally interesting to you where there are certain aspects were like, oh, I want to be doing this on a film set.

Stephanie Malson: In terms of the parts.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah, whether it’s writing, whether it’s shooting, whether it’s post, like what was kind of speaking to you?

Stephanie Malson: Well, I should say that writing has always been a desire, a passion, something that I’ve done as a young girl.

That was like the thing that I thought in some kind of way would be my career. I loved writing poetry, loved writing fiction, wasn’t totally the best at journalist style writing. But the creative writing was definitely my thing. So that class was it just kind of helped me to see the possibility. So I had to write a script and I had to find locations in, in a small way.

Had to cast whatever it was that I was making. And so quite honestly, I enjoyed all of the parts. I especially enjoyed the camera operation part. And that became the thing that I would say is my entry point into filmmaking. So I was never confident enough to call myself a cinematographer, but I did video videography, which I hate that word.

Did some of that. And I think that is really the thing that got me into further into filmmaking.

David Dylan Thomas: So it’s interesting, like, cause I kind of feel that too. Like, I don’t think I would ever call myself a cinematographer, but I’m curious, like, what. So for, for, for those who don’t like necessarily like know everything about all the different film roles, cinematographer usually refers to someone who is either really figuring out exactly how the film is going to look in terms of how lights are used, how the, I’ve heard it referred to not the elimination of shadows, but the control of shadows, you know, like, but they are the person behind the camera or the person deciding just how the, you know, camera is going to be used in a movie.

So plenty of people like us have picked up a camera, use the camera, but feel hesitant to call themselves a cinematographer and what I’m curious about is like what would it take cuz I kind of get you But like what would it take before you felt confident calling yourself a cinematographer?

Stephanie Malson: I think that’s a question that maybe when I was a couple of years younger I was still trying to figure out.

But now not so much. I think though if that was a path that I was still heavy on pursuing you I believe for me it would be mastering like, or working towards mastering the understanding of how light works and how to play with light and how to use light to tell a story in a more in depth way.

That’s in my mind what the cinematographer is really doing. I, I mean, I think innately understanding like, you know, how you frame, how you frame an image composition, things like that. I think that in my mind is like, duh, right? It’s like, yeah, that’s a natural part of a photographer’s world or a cinematographer’s world.

But it’s the lighting thing that I’m, that I’ve always been curious about and still like to this day, I took a class earlier in the year around lighting. So it’s still something that even though that’s not something, cinematography isn’t something that I go out for jobs you know, to get, I don’t go out to get jobs for that often.

Just as a person that’s interested in studying things, like that’s still something that I’m trying to figure out, like for myself.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting ’cause I, I, I kind of have a, a similar skillset or comfort level around, I feel like I know how to frame a shot and block and like figure out what I want in the foreground, the background, how to play with all that.

But the lighting part feels like much more challenging. Yeah. And that I think is a similar thing. It’s like, I don’t wanna call myself a cinematographer. Is there a word for just a mise-en-scener or a framer? Like, oh, that’s what a director does. Okay. I’ll call myself a director. No, . I mean, I think it’s all of that, but

Stephanie Malson: I, I do believe there is a blurred line sort of between director and cinematographer.

Yeah. Because in some ways they’re both trying to achieve the same thing from an image perspective. And I don’t know. I feel like sometimes we give these titles heavy weight. And so I’m sure people that, you know, know me would say that that’s something they would call me a cinematographer. But I, I feel like in my mind, like there’s, there’s levels to the game and I haven’t like gotten to, you know, the level that I believe would afford me that, that title.

Which is okay. That to me, that’s just like lifelong learning. Yeah, I want to be able, if I can’t achieve the goal, I want to be able to articulate my vision, you know, to a cinematographer. Like, I think those things are equally important, for sure.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah, and I think as you spend time on more and more sets, you start to feel comfortable with, okay, what am I willing to delegate?

Even if I’m interested in it, what am I willing to delegate versus what is the thing I still want to retain control over? And I think it’s a very similar thing with me in cinematography, with me and sound, especially, I’m just very bad at it. And I am more than happy to say you who understand sound, let me tell you my vision as the director, but I’m going to let you bring your creativity to this.

Cause that’s, I just don’t get it. I just don’t. I don’t, I don’t, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s too deep for me.

Stephanie Malson: So I have thoughts around that.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah.

Stephanie Malson: At the basic level, we, we at least need to know how to say what we want or what we don’t want. And I think with sound particularly, that is very challenging because it’s, it is so vast.

Like there’s a lot of different ways that you can make someone feel something from a sound. But how do you know what to choose? Right. But I also think that because we are accustomed to watching things, sometimes we don’t listen as intently as we could. And once you kind of hone in on like the listening part of things that you enjoy, that is a great way to kind of start to, to develop, like, your ideas around what you like and what you don’t like as you release the sound, because you hear it all the time.

When we watch films, you know, there are some sounds that we would like, never want to put in a film, but there are some that really draw us in. And I think it’s important to like interrogate that, you know to think about like, well, why do I like this, this moment or this sequence in this film, it’s probably because of these particular elements.

And part of what I had to do with one of the shorts that I directed was, the sound was the hardest part of that process for me because of course they were expecting me as the director to know what I wanted this film to sound like. So I did have to take time to like think about that and I knew at some point what worked and I knew at some point what didn’t work. And so being able to articulate that is, at the very least, is super important.

David Dylan Thomas: Well, and it’s, I also feel like it’s a challenge even knowing what’s achievable. I, I saw, I think it was Ben Burtt, if I’m not mistaken. I saw a sound designer speak at South by Southwest, and it was, I think he was talking about the opening scene from Apocalypse Now, and most people remember that scene for the visuals, right?

You have the helicopters and Martin Sheen’s face and all the fire and all that. But he just focused on the sound. The sound is what makes that scene work. And I’m not just talking about The Doors. It’s the slowed down sound of the rotors of the helicopter, right? It’s like, and it’s what you don’t hear that you don’t hear the explosion, right?

Like all of these choices and just realizing just how much you can achieve with sound. Versus the literal, like, oh, someone walked in a room, I need to hear their footsteps. You know what I mean? Like we don’t, it’s hard to realize that, oh, there’s all these, there’s this palette you didn’t even know was there.

And I think that is what requires education and exposure and focus to sort of be like, oh, what are these? What are other than the obvious visual? Cause it’s a visual medium. What are the other things that are making this scene work that I’m not really focused on?

Stephanie Malson: That’s the part that I think has fascinated me about film and continues to keep me curious in terms of like, from a creative perspective or creating perspective. All of those parts are fascinating to me. I may not have the language for every part of it, but I want to be able to have the conversation, right? To be able to like guide it or be open to suggestion or I’m, I’m a strong believer in that if I hire you to do a job, my expectation is that you are the right fit for that role. And I trust what you bring to the table. And so from a sound design perspective, like same thing applies, right? Like you, I have these series of images. This is what I want it to feel like. This is what I want my audience to walk away with in this moment.

What’s the best way to achieve that? And I’m open to the vast. And also the limit you know financially, but I love the exploration of that.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah, and it’s interesting too because so the, the, the short we’re working on now so, in, in, in addition to making White Meat, we’re making a short film called White Meat: Appetizer, which is going to be kind of a proof of concept for the, the feature and also help us raise funds for the feature.

And the, the premise is that the entire movie takes place in a coffee shop, but through the lens of an iPhone, so like everything you see in that movie is essentially a Tik Tok video. And so even there you start to run into challenges around like sound design, cause it’s like, well do I want it to sound like a phone? Do I want it to sound like a movie? Like, what do I record? Like, and again, all coming back to the, what do I want the audience to feel? And I feel like that’s one of the, and I find that endlessly fun. I find it endlessly fun to sort of say, here are the constraints and what kind of you know, thematic constraints, physical constraints, like, and what do they suggest about the choices we have for telling the story?

Stephanie Malson: Mm hmm. Agreed. And then, it keeps you curious. It keeps you open to playing. It definitely should keep you open to discovery. Because I think a lot of the beauty that I’ve found in some of the work that I’ve done has been through happy accidents, right? And so I always try to make sure I have space for that to happen. And that, you know, we can’t predict it. But it’s worth the possibility, right?

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah, and I agree. There’s so many, so many great things that can happen. So, so tell me a little about your filmmaking history. You said you had directed a film.

Stephanie Malson: I did. So 2020 was, of course, like, you know, we were at the height of the pandemic. But for some reason, not for some reason, I was working on a script in 2019, one that I had worked on probably for 10 years prior, just slow build of maybe like the lack of confidence and trying to get this to make this into a thing. But in 2020, I made two films. One was my first short, which is called Slow Burn.That is, that’s the script that I was, had been working on for so long. I wrote that, directed it and shot it. And then in the same kind of window of time, a friend of mine who is the producer of this other film, her name is Malaika Paquiot and she reached out to me and asked if I wanted to produce a script that she wrote, a short that she wrote.

The short is called Getaway. That was made between 2020 and 2021, I believe. We, the story, just in short, is about a mother who is trying to decide whether she should leave her son or in the United States or take him back to her homeland, which is Jamaica during the time of like racial unrest. And so we shot that film in North Carolina for for a week. And then we took a week off and traveled to Jamaica and shot there for, we shot physically for two days, but we were there for a week as well. And that was the film that, you know, I had the most challenge with the sound design. Cause there was, you know, there’s a lot, a lot to consider being it though, you know, it was kind of like an international film.

But yeah, we, we finished that film and it started its festival run, I think, in 2023. And it’s still kind of making, making its way. She text, text me yesterday to tell me that it got into a festival in the UK.

David Dylan Thomas: Nice. So, it still blows my mind. We’ve talked about this before, but it still blows my mind that you’re making this indie film. Not a huge budget and it’s like, yeah, let’s go to Jamaica. Let’s shoot in Jamaica.

Stephanie Malson: David, it was, it was probably a decent budget.This was, so I don’t know the numbers fully, but I’m almost sure that the budget was, it’s relatively significant for a short.

I think that that was Malika’s first, first try as a producer. It was my first ish time. My first time directing an international film for sure. And so there were, there was a lot, I think that we had to, you know, trial and error essentially. But I think in my experience 2020 from 2020 to 2024 or currently I’ve had enough experience with either directing and producing that I have a rough idea of what it costs to make a short.

I don’t care where the short’s being made. I’m almost sure Jamaica was more expensive because we were shooting during the pandemic. So by the time we got to Jamaica, we had to stay. because of their rules around COVID. So we had to stay quarantined for a week and then we were able to technically be out in public shooting for the two days that we were really there for, it would have been cheaper I think if we didn’t have to, you know, didn’t have that kind of restriction on us or whatever, but yeah, I think shorts can range in terms of cost between like 10, 000 and 100.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah, and we’re smack in the middle, folks. So, for those of you who don’t know already, like, so we are fundraising for the short White Meat: Appetizer.

And our target is around 60, 000. And good news as of the recording of this podcast, and I have no idea what order these are going to be released in, but today is August the 21st, and we’ve basically raised half our pre-crowdfunding goal of 20,000, because we want to, day one, have a third of the goal. So we’re already halfway to that. So yay. 

Stephanie Malson: I just want to jump in and say that strategy was so smart. When it was suggested, I think that’s not something that most either first time filmmakers consider. Sometimes we don’t even know that that’s really, that really is what is happening on the back end with these crowdfunding campaigns.

So the fact that that was recommended and you followed through, I think it’s just really, really smart because it’s going to just boost this project even more to have you know, you see money kind of already there. Yeah it gives people even more of an incentive to support the project and yeah, I I think there is a strategy there. We know that there’s a strategy. I think sometimes we just are not Aware of what that strategy is.

David Dylan Thomas: Well, it’s like it’s like a magic trick And because you see sort of like this Kickstarter go out into the world and it’s like, oh, it got funded. And then you see another one. Oh, it didn’t get funded. And it’s like, what’s the difference?

And like on the surface, you can’t, there’s not a lot to go with, but if you know, like, and I’m going to credit Alex Hillman, who’s another guest on the podcast, another friend of the of the movie for, for teaching me that strategy. Cause I didn’t know it either, but it’s one of those things. Once you see how the magic trick is done, you’re like, of course, why would you do it any other way?

I want to talk a bit more about your producing. So first off. Producing, I’ve been in this business for, since I was in high school and by in this business, I mean literally trying to make movies, not getting paid to make movies. That’s different. But making movies, I’ve been making movies this whole time, but no, to this day, I couldn’t, if someone asked me what’s a producer do, I’d be like, you just ask like 50 questions.

I don’t know. Like, so from your perspective, when you are answering that question, what does a producer do or what do you do as a producer?

Stephanie Malson: So I asked that question, I asked that question when it was posed to me the very first official time, but I didn’t ask it to the people that posed it to me.

I was asking it to myself, I guess. I think the quick answer is like producers do a lot of things but they are responsible. So my brain always kind of splits into different directions with this question. If this is a, let’s say, and I’m air quoting Hollywood project the producer is the owner of the film.

The producer is the person that is helping to get the money for the project. And ultimately has some legal ownership over the film for the duration of it, based on the contract, from what I understand. And I’m sure someone could correct that, but so that’s one path, right. From an indie perspective, that option is there depending on the relationship.

But the way that I’ve dealt with producing so far is I’m responsible for the pre-production. I should say, I’ve been responsible for supporting the creative development of the script. In the kind of like a final phase. Pre-production, production, post production, delivery. And that just means that I am in charge or, you know, kind of overseeing all of those elements in the ways that I’ve produced more recently.

So I’ve been a part of Blackstar Film Festivals Philadelphia Filmmaker Lab for two years. The first year was in 2022. And the second year was 2023 that the, the years might overlap a little bit, but in the first iteration, it was the same for both iterations, but in the first iteration they hired producers to produce four films through the lab.

And so for me, that just meant that my job was to find the crew, hire the crew, manage locations, scout locations, be supportive around any set design needs, be supportive around any wardrobe. We, we were way more hands on with wardrobe for the first lab film. But that was just lack of, due to lack of experience, long story short.

Get the film off the ground, essentially. Budget. The budget is the probably the biggest part of all of the process. I wasn’t paying people directly, but I was responsible for making sure they got paid. Negotiating rates with the crew that we hired. Managing the team once we were on set together.

Making sure that, you know, we were getting meals at the proper times. I didn’t really have the responsibility of building a schedule, but I was a part of that process. And for the first film, particularly, like I just had a really tight relationship with the director, writer/director. And so there was that support as well.

And all of those parts I loved. I can’t say that there was one part that I didn’t, well, there’s always one part that I don’t want to do. I really do not enjoy building schedules and I don’t like being a part of those conversations. Actually, that’s just totally transparent. I understand the need.

I love, I would love to find like a, a squad of professional ADs, especially like people of color that would, that that’s their thing, that’s their lane, they love it. And I would source them for any project that I work on essentially. But yeah, producing could be a lot of different things. Sometimes the, sometimes the producer is more hands off, but I will say no matter what the producer is responsible for the wellbeing of both the people on a production, as well as the production itself.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. So, and it’s, and I feel like if it’s a healthy production, those two are the same thing, right? You’re not saying, oh, we’re getting everything done on time, but everyone’s miserable.

It’s like, no, we can’t, we can’t do that.

Stephanie Malson: So that’s not the, that is. That is. I didn’t know that that was a skill that I had. I just hear people say it all the time in these instances.

David Dylan Thomas: That’s kind of the best way you know, you’ve got the skill. Cause it’s like, I’m not saying I’m good at this. Everybody else is saying I’m good.

Stephanie Malson: It’s supposed to be like, yo, this was such a great set. Like, you know, I felt cared for. And I talk about that a lot to my peers because it is such a simple thing to do. A smile, a check in, asking how you’re doing, do you need anything? Can I pick that up for you? You know what I mean? Like, small things, when people are in the trenches of a, a tedious task, small things matter.

And, I don’t know, that’s just something I’m mindful of, and try to like, I don’t do it on purpose, it’s just, I think that’s just my way, maybe. And I know what it’s like, most times, to be in the position that the people are in. And I know what it feels like to not feel cared for in those positions. And so, yeah, I’m mindful about whether or not the cinematographer had lunch and did they have the snack that they enjoy?

Cause you know, why not? You know what I mean? Like not a big deal. It’s literally a choice. And so, yeah, it’s, I think in order for a production, there’s a lot at play, but I think part of, there are some things that we can control as producers and mostly it is how I show up. And, you know. What tone do I set as a producer?

You know, what’s my relationship with the director? Is that relationship impeding production? If it is, do we have the ability to communicate and squash whatever it is and, you know, get the job done? I’ve been in all of those kinds of situations actually. And so like, I’m not afraid, you know, it’s a really, it’s a, it’s a stressful role, but also I think it’s super rewarding.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. So you’d mentioned about before, like, hopefully hoping to find like all black ADs. AD is like assistant director for those who are curious. So I’m Black. You’re Black. For those on the podcast, you can’t tell. And one of the things that this podcast is about and this project is about is what it means to be a Black filmmaker in America in 2024, what it means to be a Black filmmaker in Philadelphia, a majority Black city that depending on where you move around, you don’t know it’s a majority Black city. No, seriously, I was hanging out with my son in Center City and he’s looking at a mural of all these black folks and he’s just trying to get his head around why is there, you know, a mural of all these black folks? Like, is there, like, where are all the black folks?

And I’m like, oh right, we’ve never been to parts of Philadelphia that are majority Black, so of course he doesn’t know that this is a majority Black city. But, but so I’m curious, you know, like, what, I’m trying to figure out the best way to phrase this, but it’s like, what how has, or has, period, right, your Blackness, or your being a black woman, or any of these sort of pieces of your identity informed how you approach the work, or really what you’ve learned about the work, because what I’ve, I’ve, the journey I’ve been on in part has just been sort of even noticing, oh hey, I’m the only black face on the set, or hey, all the movies I like are white directors? Wait, when did that happen? Like, like, when did, like, I miss all, like, it’s almost like a, when did you discover you were Black in film kind of question. But just, you just tell me a little bit about that. Cause like, that’s, I think a unique journey for every Black filmmaker.

Stephanie Malson: I hesitate to answer this question particularly because I’m not sure, like, how I feel about being a Black woman filmmaker in Philadelphia. I think the beauty of Philly from a creative perspective is there’s community. I think the community is supportive but I think there’s still opportunities for growth. I do not think that there are I do not think that currently there is a path for a profession as a Black woman filmmaker here.

Most of my peers and I’m thinking about like the elders just as much as like people my age and people younger, most of the people, Black women that have made projects here have either had to leave physically to build a career or don’t do the work anymore. Or do a little bit here and there. But there’s no actual, like, space for us to have a profession.

This, this is not my job. This is my job. Actually, but it’s not a job that I could survive off of. And that’s unfortunate. I don’t understand. I mean, I understand why, but it’s really hard. I, I was on a production that I won’t kind of name per se, but I was on a production recently and this was the first time in all the time that I’ve been kind of in the filmmaking circle here in Philly, that I’ve been on a LA based production that came here to film. And even with that, like tremendous opportunity, I have TV credit now. I could build off of that credit if I want to, or can try at least. But I think the path for, for us, Black women particularly, is just so challenging and it’s still challenging. I think it’s always been challenging historically. I think the filmmaker that I will look to that kind of is a poster child of that is Julie Dash. Julie Dash has not had the ability to tell the stories that she is fully qualified to tell. And that is primarily because who’s funding Black women making film.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. And, and Julie Dash, and for those of you who don’t know, this is Daughters of the Dust. Daughters of the Dust.

Stephanie Malson: And, but that’s the, that’s the messed up part. Right. That’s not the only thing that she’s made. But unfortunately, she hasn’t had the wind, like she hasn’t had the space to build on, what could have been the next five films beyond daughters of the dust.

David Dylan Thomas: Well, yeah, and that’s the I mean we talk about this all the time How many swings at bat, you know a white director gets or male director gets? Versus even when there’s a successful even when you hit a home run. It’s like Yeah, I don’t think so Still no more

Stephanie Malson: The quote that I heard last night during listening to this DNC speeches and stuff was failing, being able to fail forward. Yeah. Who, who has that opportunity, but like white guys, honestly.

David Dylan Thomas: And let’s not miss that. We’re having this conversation and the two months, you know, leading up to fingers crossed the first Black woman president. And it’s the same thing, right?

There’s only a handful of Black women in politics you point to in history, we’ve had these sort of. home runs, and even then getting their next at bat is just harder. Hard. Cori Bush just got pushed out, right? Like all of this stuff is, is, is, is geared against you. And I like, when I think about Julie Dash, I think about someone who even with, I don’t know, it was Daughters of the Desert, her first film, but that film, whenever it comes in her filmography alone, puts her up with Scorsese, puts her up with Spielberg, puts her up like, I can’t name a single director I think who could make a movie as good as that, you know?

Stephanie Malson: And especially Being as though in, you know, 20, in these later 2020 time period, like people are still using that as a point of reference to make their art.

David Dylan Thomas: And I think that, I mean, we’ve talked about this before and I think, and what’s interesting to me is how this is informing our relationship and our approach because I think it’s making us very studio averse.

Like we literally made a matrix in one of our first meetings around who and how we wanted to get funding and given the amount of freedom we wanted. And the kind of artistic decisions we wanted to make. We had this sort of like, axis of, you know, vertical axis would be like, how much power do we get to keep versus how much power don’t we get, and then how much money can we expect, you know, is like the other axis, and versus, and basically the studios would give us the most money, but give us the least power, and then kind of crowdfunding gives us the most, the most, the, the, the, the least quote unquote money, but like, more power.

And so I think every, I think the conversation we’re having now sort of like indicates why there’s this desire to say, we will take less money if it means more power, we will take less money if it means more working together, right?

Stephanie Malson: I’ve always kind of, once this profession became like a strong interest for me, I’ve, I’ve always been trying to, like trying to understand the difference between the Hollywood path and the indie path. And at every turn, it always boils down to freedom. Every, every time I think about it, it is, it always boils down to ownership and freedom. And I think sometimes we forget that these are products that somebody sees the value of, you know, in its totality, in the life cycle of the product, they understand what the value of that is or they don’t care and they don’t need to care, but they could spend money on it anyway, right?

Whereas we’ve never, we being like black creatives have never really had the chance to see that really, we haven’t really had the chance to like exploit our own creative endeavor in a way that we’re like lucrative, right? But I know that it’s there. It just takes a little bit more work. It’s, I think the choice oftentimes is do we want to put that work in?

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. I mean, they call it like sweat equity, right? Like that’s kind of the thing. It’s like, do you want to, you know, have one meeting with Mr money bags? Who’s going to like give you everything, or do you want to send out a hundred emails, then another hundred and then another hundred and then have another 50 phone calls and like,

Stephanie Malson: Because I think the reason, the reason why anybody would choose the money bags is because that other side is a little demoralizing, but it also doesn’t fit the, the illusion that we have around filmmaking. The illusion, in my humble opinion, is that someone will show up and give you money and you both will make money off of this thing.

David Dylan Thomas: That is absolutely the dream.

Stephanie Malson: No, it doesn’t work like that, actually.

It’s the, it’s the total opposite. And we hear about it. If you’re paying attention, we hear about it from our, the filmmakers that we love all the time. But I also understand that, like, you got to pay your mortgage. So that hundred thousand dollar advance may make sense to you. Because it’s a product to sell your product and move on.

Right? But I don’t know, it’s, it’s a loss, but I also don’t think that it’s, we can’t make films in poverty.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. And we shouldn’t have to write, like you mentioned that part about the demoralizing, I’m like, it’s demoralized. So I’ve, I’ve had this experience, you know, I wrote this book and in order to kind of get the marketing out, I kind of had to just.

Ask a lot of people for favors, right? And literally, I literally sent 2, 000 individual LinkedIn messages to people. And it worked. The book launched very well. And that part wasn’t so much demoralizing because I think, I think we’re meant, we’re meant to view it as demoralizing because we have this whole mythos in this country that money equals virtue.

That if you have money, that equals you are a good person or a successful person. Even if you’re not a good person, you’re to be awed, like, like lauded, you’re to be praised for being wealthy, whether you’re a good person or not. Like, oh, you’re wealthy? Well, you must be either really smart or really, you know, good, right?

Whereas if you don’t have money, okay, you’re lazy or whatever. And so just not having money in and of itself becomes the source of shame. So I think, you know, that getting hammered into us makes it seem like it should be demoralizing. But, and, and, and I was definitely, as I began on this fundraising journey, even for the short, I was definitely demoralized around the notion of, oh my God, I have to like come up with $60,000.

How many people are going to like ask all these people and ask my friends for this? But the more I did it, the more it was like, A, it just becomes kind of copy paste, right? Like you’re kind of like, kind of like okay, this ask doesn’t change very much from email to email. So I’m just going to kind of, yeah.

And then, and then honestly, it’s like, okay, put on a podcast and just go. But, but but, but it’s also just this, like, cause the people I’ve actually talked to who do this for a living, they’re like, you are giving people an opportunity to do this really fun thing.

Stephanie Malson: Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas: How many times do you get an email from a friend saying, Hey, I’m making a movie about Black zombies.You want to give me some money? No, that doesn’t ever happen. That happens once in a lifetime.

Stephanie Malson: I think that’s the other thing that’s special about this project. Particularly, I was thinking about this today, like. This is, this, I, your idea is something that most people would have like as an idea and never do anything.

It would be a joke, right? Like, but you’re actually taking the steps to realize this thing. And I think that in itself should be championed. Because we don’t do that. We don’t have the space to be expansive in our imagination. And actually, like, bring that to life, right? So yeah, I, when you pit, when you posed the idea of White Meat to me originally, there was no reason for me to say no.

Because you are, you are doing the thing that most, Black filmmakers particularly, should have the ability to do. And that is to dream, dream with some historical context in a really dope way. And do the thing that feels like, you know, we should be afraid of saying this thing, right. No challenge that do it.

Yeah, that that honestly is what I love the most about this project and especially about you like you are it feels like you’re taking a risk. But you’re just being you’re just saying the thing that we probably would say like hanging out anyway, right? Why not? Life is too short. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, say the thing Thank you.

White Meat? That the title alone, the title alone, it still gets me.

David Dylan Thomas: I, well, first of all, thank you for saying that. And thank you for helping out with this. I think that, you know, and I want to, I want to give some context to that. Cause I think there’s a lot of things happening, right? Like I am at a point in my life now where two things are happening.

One, I am getting older and it’s sort of like, if this is the only film I make, the only like big feature film I make, then. Done. Like, that, that, this is my bucket list last hurrah. If the last thing I do, like you can take the camera out of my dying hands, you know, like I will always be trying to make this movie.

So there’s that, but, and the other thing honestly happening, I’m at a point in my life now where I have some financial security and I thank my wife for that. She has a very good job and we’re sort of like able to have me like have a consulting business that like doesn’t require me to be constantly at work is yeah, if I was working a nine to five would be very hard to make this.

Stephanie Malson: Yeah.

David Dylan Thomas: So I check my privilege there. But yeah, I think I think all those things are in play. And I like what you said about like, doing this with a historical context. And that’s actually one of the other things I wanted to talk to you about is like, when I met you, you were either just coming off of, or you were continuing to work on sort of this project around an artist who was doing some work depicting, I want to say the Haitian Revolution.

Is that correct? Tell me about that.

Stephanie Malson: So this was one of the projects that I would say, like launched me as a filmmaker. The film is called Ulrick. It is about, it is a documentary that is chronicling the life of a Haitian painter named Ulrick Jean Pierre. This is created, directed by Tatiana Bacchus another local Philly filmmaker.

David Dylan Thomas: I’ve met her, I know Tatiana, that’s awesome.

Stephanie Malson: Yeah so Tatiana reached out to me, we had worked on a promo, we did like a promo tour with the Debbie Allen Dance Academy, I think in 2016. And she pitched this documentary to me over at the kitchen table kind of thing. And I was like, how can I help?

I helped her kind of get funding for a trip to New Orleans to film Ulrick in his home. As well as kind of capture his paintings in and around New Orleans. He is not, he’s Haiti born. He came to Philadelphia, I think in the Seventies, kind of through an exchange program of some sort. And he started the Haitian Revolution series of paintings in the seventies in Philadelphia, actually.

He lived in Philadelphia for maybe, I think it was like 10 or 15 years. And that’s where he started the series. The series is, I would say we all say is a work that’s often referenced when people talk about the Haitian Revolution. So anytime the Haitian Revolution bubbles up in conversation and you see a depiction of it, you’re oftentimes seeing Ulrick’s work.

People don’t know that he’s a living filmmaker. I think because of his style of painting he see, it seems like he’s, you know, kind of a master from like Delacroix or somebody like that. Right. I don’t know what time period that is that he was alive, but this is a living filmmaker who continues to work on this series.

And I think it’s been over 20 or 30 years that he’s been painting paintings related to the Haitian Revolution. And so we spent the last five or six years documenting him in various locations, including Haiti. We didn’t, he wasn’t in Haiti when we went to Haiti, but we covered the places that he captured in paintings in Cape Haitian.

We’ve covered his work Philadelphia he has paintings here. He has paintings. I think we were out in Kansas so we’ve pretty much like traveled throughout the country a little bit capturing his work as well as t rying to tell some version of his life story. So it’s still in work in progress.

David Dylan Thomas: Where in Philadelphia?

Stephanie Malson: That is a great question.

I think a lot of what we, what we found in Philly is in private collections. But because he lived here, we were able to document kind of like where he lived. And I believe the African American Museum in Philly has some of his work as well. That’s something that we still have to kind of uncover.

And the last thing we were able to do was capture Charles Blockson, who is a historian and collector, who was a historian and collector whose work exists or lives at Temple University. Unfortunately, Mr. Blockson passed away last year. But, but, he, I think Ulrick, create, like did the cover art for a book on Haiti.

And so, you know, it’s just been a lot of like full circle moments with both Ulrick and just kind of his connection to Philly, his connection to New Orleans, Haiti, like all of those places.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. So I don’t want to give too much away, but there is a way in which the Haitian Revolution tangentially comes into the plot.

Can you say a little bit about what makes that revolution so special for Black people? What about his depiction is kind of, you know, giving it life or, or, or, or uplifting it in some way?

Stephanie Malson: So it was a couple of things. Of course I’m not, you know, a Haitian historian, but my, in my understanding of it the Haitian Revolution really sparked the possibility at the time, I guess this was like in the 1700s, 1800s, that revolutions could have taken place in the United States, right? And so like, from what I understand, The Louisiana Purchase happened because of the Haitian revolution.

David Dylan Thomas: Napoleon got his ass kicked and could no longer afford to keep Louisiana and all that territory.That was a, that was a fire sale because Napoleon was getting his ass kicked.

Stephanie Malson: It was like half of the United States.

David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. It wasn’t just Louisiana.

Stephanie Malson: It was like a big swath of the country. But that was primarily because of the Haitian revolution. And I think the thing that I’ve learned from through the documentary process is like Haitians have been The architects of so much of America structurally, like from an architectural perspective, New Orleans is the, the look of New Orleans exists because of Haitian people.

If you go to Cape Haitian, it looks just the same. So they brought their skill, they brought their talent, they brought their artistry to the U. S. And was able to like recreate what they knew, right? I think from the other, the other things, I guess, what was your question?

David Dylan Thomas: Oh, so just sort of saying, and what is, so, so why is, why is this, this particular revolution particularly important for black people?

And what is it about his work that was really, you know, that makes it so special for depicting…

Stephanie Malson: So I think it’s important for black people. or it has felt that, this is why it kind of bubbles up in pop culture a lot. Because we are always, black Americans, particularly are always looking to the Haitian Revolution as like in a, to me, in an idealistic way.

Like this is what’s possible. Haiti was the first black republic in this hemisphere. And that doesn’t really exist till this day. And I think that’s something that we as a culture want. And so I, I believe that the power that they held is something that till this day we still kind of, we value.

And try our, you know, in some way to kind of use as a catalyst for the change that we’re creating here in this country as well. His art is something that you have to see in person. He depicts the figures, key figures sometimes, but sometimes not like he depicts the figures in the revolution in the most regal and massive way that he can mm hmm.

So most paintings that you’re seeing of his are like floor to ceiling in a way or close. They are, they feel real. One of the jokes that we had when we first went to New Orleans to capture his art, it was at an exhibit at one of this the HBCU’s down there, it was a painting he did of Frederick Douglass. And somebody said, how did you get like the detail of Frederick Douglass’s hair so well? And he said, oh, I went to his grave site and like, I don’t know, like got into the grave anyway, terrible way to deliver the joke. But the point is, he paints with such detail and it does feel like there’s a channeling that’s happening in his work.

Because you, you don’t, we don’t know like how, I think that is a part of his process that he is in tune with the people that he is depicting on his canvas. He also does a beautiful job with depicting Haitian women who were an essential part of the revolution, who were some of the, you know, key figures in the revolution.

And so it’s not just, you know, the generals and et cetera. It is also the, the women who were helping to conspire this idea and kind of bring it to fruition. Yeah, he captures all of that stuff as well.

David Dylan Thomas: Oh my god. So I really want to see one of those paintings now.

Stephanie Malson: Yeah, for sure. I that’s the goal I think. Once we get through we’re trying to get this film through post production money is always a challenge but I think what we want from a producing perspective is to tour the film and the art together if we can.

David Dylan Thomas: Excellent. Stephanie, thank you so much. It has been an absolute pleasure talking to you.

Stephanie Malson: I feel like this is the best podcast experience I’ve had thus far. Thank you.

David Dylan Thomas: Well, thank you for that. So for the White Meat Podcast, I’m David Dylan Thomas, and we will see you next time.

Stephanie Malson: Yay. Yay, that was great. I loved it.