This episode we talk to White Meat: Appetizer production designer Jai Monee about how she uses objects and color to turn a real restaurant into a fake coffee shop.
Listen to “The White Meat Podcast” on Spreaker.Here’s the transcript:
David Dylan Thomas: Hey everybody. Welcome to the White Meat Podcast. I’m your host, David Dylan Thomas writer, director of the movie White Meat, a movie with the following premise, underneath Washington Square Park are buried the bodies of hundreds of enslaved people. What if one night they all come back from the dead of zombies, but they only hate white people?
We have if you follow this, you know, we finished shooting the short White Meat: Appetizer, which is gonna help us get the feature made. But the latest update is last Friday, I got to see the rough cuts of the short put together by the wonderful Raquel Davis.
Looks great. I think the compliment I gave her was that the edit was already so tight that I wasn’t even thinking about the edit anymore. I’m already looking forward to like sound and color, like those are the things I was kind of focusing on. It’s like, oh, this is good. Now we, now we need to get, like, the thing that was standing out to me was like the sound issues.
It’s like, let’s, let’s, let’s tackle those. So gave her some notes. We’ve got some, some tweaks we’re gonna add, but I’d say it’s you know, 90% of the way there. Super psyched for you all to see it. But yeah, so that’s the latest update. We are making progress on the, on the edit.
So this episode we are gonna be talking to Jai Monee who was our amazing production designer helped put together the look of the set and gave us like wonderful like menus for our fake Beanjamin Franklin Coffee Shop and all sorts of other touches.
We’re gonna talk to her about that work. And so let’s get right to it.
[musical interlude]
David Dylan Thomas: Welcome everybody to the White Meat Podcast. I’m your host, David Dylan Thomas, and our very special guest today is our own production designer, Jai Monee. Jai, tell the good people what it is you get up to.
Jai Monee: Hey, I’m Jai what it is I get up to, I get up to all of the quirky, fun things in my normal life and I try to bring that into film. I work as production designer all over the art department as well as costuming. Yeah, I’m a installation artist. I DJ a little bit on the side.
David Dylan Thomas: Cool DJ bit. Tell me a little bit more about the DJ bit.
I didn’t even know that while we were working together.
Jai Monee: Yeah, actually a good friend of mine, he used to train under some of the DJs from Sonder. I don’t know if you know about the group Sonder. Yeah. So he’s been like teaching me off and on for about a year and a half now. So I’m kind of just like getting my quips a little bit with that, learning the equipment.
I make really great playlists, so I try to make those into some sets and yeah, it’s just, it’s been fun also. It’s kind of difficult. It’s more difficult than you think, but it’s pretty fun.
David Dylan Thomas: Oh, that’s cool. We should have you DJ the wrap party.
Jai Monee: Oh, would love that.
David Dylan Thomas: So I, for a long time even did not really understand what production design is.
People may or may not be familiar with it. It’s also kind of been called art department. It’s been called Art Design, it’s called. So tell me in your own words, what is production design? What is it that you do?
Jai Monee: Okay, so the role of the production designer, I say, is to illustrate the des the director’s mind.
When it comes down to the script it’s all about world building. Because we can talk about a story that’s in the sixties or talk about a story that’s, you know, current day, but the story that’s written on paper that the director sees in their mind is really its own world, right? So. As my job in the art department is to pretty much bring together all those elements so that the viewer can see it as a real world.
David Dylan Thomas: Mm-hmm.
Jai Monee: Even if it’s, you know, based in present day, it may feel natural. But in this case, like we have zombies. Or there’s some, you know specific elements that happen, but there’s some rules. Quote unquote, that changes in the world. And there are some choices that the characters or that the environment may have in the space that don’t necessarily go with modern day, but they go with modern day of that world.
David Dylan Thomas: Right, right.
Jai Monee: Yeah.
David Dylan Thomas: So, yeah, and that’s something we’ve talked about in the, the larger context of like, this movie takes place in Philadelphia, but it takes place in our Philadelphia, right? So there’s like a layer on top of the real world. So to wit, like one of the challenges I asked you to kind of overcome is we were working in this space called Bittersweet Kitchen.
It’s a restaurant here in media and they kindly let us use the space, but there were limits on what we could do to the space. So tell me about like, the challenges around transforming like an existing restaurant into a fake coffee shop, which in this case was coffee shop we made up called Beanjamin Franklin.
How did you go about changing the space to make it look like a different space without really altering exactly in a way where it’s like, you know, you have to like knock down a wall or like, you know, repaint the walls or whatever.
Jai Monee: Yeah. So I think the space provided great bones. So it wasn’t a lot that needed to change outside of like the easy tactical things like artwork. Some of the branding in the space so that we don’t see that it’s Bittersweet Kitchen. So, and even like the tables, like we could have changed the tables and things like that, but they felt really natural to our world of Philadelphia, so itt was more so about repositioning and then bringing in those smaller elements like more relevant artwork. A lot of the artwork that was in the space was like Media centered, but our story is based in like Central Philadelphia, so that really didn’t make sense. And then when you think about Philadelphia coffee shops, a lot of them have a lot of local artists in this space which that space did, but it was not really necessarily aligning with the story. So for me, I wanted to bring in a lot of local artists that I work with. That’s always a thing of mine is to highlight local talent whenever I can, when I’m doing some film projects. But, to bring in some, some artwork that made sense to the story and then recreate the branding really in this space.
And even some of the food items that were in this space, a lot of those food items were like breakfast items that the kitchen would make. But even seeing that on the wall in the back of seeing like the menu that really wouldn’t have made sense to the coffee shop. So. It was my duty to pretty much recreate all new branding for the space with it being Benjamin Franklin and with it being Benjamin Franklin playing to that theme of Benjamin Franklin, the American Revolution. And then how can we tie in other little attributes like the towels being American flags or even with the logo being not just Benjamin Franklin, which we always see, but like playing with the logo to kind of add a little humor to it, which I always, I kind of find in Philly too.
It’s a lot of like restaurants and little shops that have these fun names. So how can we co continue to make that fun? Also continue to kind of like, make fun of the story too. Because again, we’re in this, this world that’s new, that’s kind of quirky. That’s, but still feels very real. Yeah.
So it was, it was a fun flip. It was kind of easy, but it kind of was, it was, it was to be smart, like I had to make some smart decisions and that was fun.
David Dylan Thomas: So, yeah, and you did have fun with it, so I was so glad I got to keep the props at the end because you created these little menus and kinda like the big menu that goes up front and then the little specials and they are, you know, camera ready, but they’re also like. If you sit down and you read them, they work.
If you were to actually walk in and sit down, you would think this was a real menu. Like it’s all, it’s not like Lorem Ipsum. It’s like all real words.
Jai Monee: Yeah.
David Dylan Thomas: On theme and super funny. Like, tell me a little bit about the process of creating things that are never gonna show up on camera. Like there’s no way you’re gonna be able to freeze frame any of this movie and actually read these menus, but you, you went the extra mile and created not just menus that made sense as menus, but menus that fit the world of this fake coffee shop I made and that are genuinely hilarious. I will never forget one of the menu items is Eggs Benedict Arnold. I’m like, that’s fantastic. And even the descriptions, right? Had all these little puns in them. So tell me about like, why you as an artist go that extra mile and kind of like what that process of like is thinking of just how far to go, you know?
Jai Monee: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think it’s, it’s the layering of the, of the world building, honestly. Like I said, I really love like afrosurrealism and I love things that feel very absurd. And you find in movies like what’s that? Sorry to Bother You. Or like in the TV show, Atlanta. There’s a lot of like small little things that just sit in the background that continue to build that world, but if you were to pause it to go to the bathroom really quick or whatever, and you come back and you’re like, what is that in the back?
Like, what is that? Like? You know what I mean? So it’s like. Continuing to layer those moments that really feel natural to the space. For the menus, that was such a fun project. I have a friend of mine that is. Hilarious. He has, he comes up with these like really fast, like quips, like really quick things.
And I sat with him and I was like, I’m creating this menu and I have these names and I’m, and he’s also a history buff and all the things. So I was like, let’s sit together and let’s just talk about things. Let’s just talk about the American Revolution. Let’s talk about coffee in a way. Let’s talk about, you know, these, these the, the small things that you may see in like coffee shops.
And we kind of came up with some of the names together, and then I sat and I just kind of got inspired by the names as well as some of the research that I’ve done on the revolution and as well as like Philadelphia’s history just to see like what would make sense in these, in some of these names.
My personal favorite was the Sweetwater Teas. And the list of teas was non-existent because it said, whatever we have left, you can have it.
So like that type of stuff was fun. Like the insurrection blend that kind of just came easy. You know, notes of trumpet mushrooms. Turpentine, like, you know, things that sound insane, but this story is kind of like insane. But it, it’s kind of also very. Real in a way. So I really wanted to like, play with that.
Like I said, I like to, I like for the viewer to be able to watch something over and over. That’s kind of just how I move too. Of like, when I watch things over and over, I notice things. And that was before I even got into film. I gotta credit. My high school American Lit Literature teacher, she was a nutball and she kind of taught us about color theory. She taught us about a lot of things that we would see or read within the text that meant something deeper. And she also was a over the theater department, so that was like my first introduction into like set design. And a lot of the little attributes, a lot of the things that we would put on the set, I didn’t understand at the time, but when we sat and we realized like, oh, that makes sense.
Even if he picks it up one time and it’s something sitting next to it it can, it’s adding extra layers to the story.
David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. I mean, one thing that comes to mind is those American flag towels, right? Like when I first saw them on set, I’m like. Is this some lucky coincidence that these and like, no, like you, that was a deliberate choice.
It’s, it’s, it’s interesting ’cause I grew up learning about film and the first approach I learned was, well, you know, this thing called auteur theory, where it’s like every single decision you see in the movie was this one. Usually a man’s like this one director’s choice, right? And so that’s a way to sort of tie together all the visual elements to say that, you know, it’s an American flag because he’s saying this about American blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then, you know, as you grow up you start to realize that’s bullshit. And there’s so many people working on a film set and so many, but it is. But it is really neat to see. How once everyone kind of gets a common, in this case afrosurrealist vision, they will bring their own elements in and it’s like, you know, given enough time, and maybe I would’ve thought of writing into the script they have American flag towels, probably not. But you catching the vibe and being like, okay, well I’m gonna add my, you know, sauce to this. And it’s like, oh yes, okay. And, and then it’s, and then I see that I’m like, oh, that’s, I would never have thought.. That’s perfect. Like I love that little commentary, which.
Again. Yeah. It adds all these layers that I didn’t even expect. That’s been the fun part for me actually making this movie is like I have a set, I have like an agenda and these ideas. But then to see what other people bring to it that makes it even deeper and deeper and deeper in ways that I didn’t expect.
I think that’s really fun. So I guess this is what I’m saying. Thank you for bringing that to the mix. But I wanna get, I wanna get more into this afrosurrealist vibe. ‘Cause that is definitely something I have been digging on lately, like going back to Atlanta, like the example, ’cause that’s like my favorite show of all time.
I think that might be the best show ever made. And there’s this, there’s an episode called Juneteenth. And in that episode, they’re having a party and there’re these themed cocktails and they’re fucking hilarious. And and he reads off like the, the main character Earn reads some of them off. And, but, but he doesn’t read all of them, so if you pause it, I’m like, I’m pausing this and you read and they’re all so good. But that’s, that reminds me of is how you can use production design to build out that afrosurrealist theme, you know?
Jai Monee: Yeah. And it’s like, you know, I, and when we had our our meeting, was like the, at the restaurant and I was asking some questions. You know, they may not even feel like necessary in the moment of like, why are you asking me this? Even for our main character I was asking like, where is he from? Like what kind of, what kind of, what part of West Philly, which side of Market is he from?
Because I really, yeah. It really shows their experience throughout their life and then the choices that they make, right, and then the choices that they make informs the things that we see. It informs what that he would put on. It would inform, you know the type of money that he has for the equipment that he may have.
And even in the space, you know it’s just like, why, like how long has this restaurant been here? Like, you know what part of like where in, we’re in Rittenhouse? Okay, cool. We by the park. Okay, that makes sense. But that also makes sense to the customer that’s coming into that space too. And the person that they’re trying to bring into this space.
Even for like social media purposes or whatever. ‘Cause this is the world that we live in today, right? If we were talking about a story that was based in the nineties if even if it was the same type of story, but if it was based in the nineties these questions would be a little bit different and the decisions would be different ’cause we’re not considering certain things.
So it’s, it’s really, it’s really layered. And I think that, I had a friend of mine that was like. Well, he didn’t write or like, you know, this person didn’t write that into the story or like, what made you make that choice? And I’m like, a lot of times the director or the writer is not necessarily thinking about these small details ’cause you’re thinking about the story.
But you know, when it comes down to like, really how, how deep you know, these choices are these the, the types of things that we see. That type of stuff isn’t really, I feel like that is kind of counterproductive to the process in a way. Like, ’cause you can really kind of like pigeonhole yourself, especially as the writer, you can get stuck into, you know, maybe one thing that you want, but when you really dive deep into that and you have other perspective when it comes down to the art department, costuming, all that.
You gotta gotta lean into the experts in that way.
David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. And I, and I, and as I mature as a screener, that is one of the things I start to think about is rather than it being my job as the screenwriter to detail out every single thing. It’s almost the opposite of like, how little can I give you to give you what you need to say, oh, this is what he’s on about. Okay, let me do this, lemme do this, lemme do this. Right. I think that is more where I’m evolving as a screenwriter to say like, what’s, what’s the minimum I can give you as the artist working on it to to carry that forward with your own vision?
Jai Monee: Yeah, and I think that’s also exciting too, for the feature, right?
So like we’re, we’re thinking deeply now and then now that we’ve done this for the appetizer and this is now we’ve really thought about it in a different way. Now we’re seeing it in this way. Because they always say like, it’s the script that you write. It’s a script that you shoot, and then it’s a script that you edit.
Yeah. Right. So like when it comes down to the edit, once it’s all done and when you see it, and now that you have had all these conversations, that’s even more information that you have for the feature to even continue to build the world out even bigger.
David Dylan Thomas: Yeah, and that’s exciting too because like the, the feature, like in a way this is a microcosm of the feature because the feature is gonna have like a similar pattern of like, here’s the setting and it has to be a very real setting. It may even be a real life setting. Like this is actually the Liberty Bell, this is actually the President’s House. Or it may be a made up bar or whatever, but the same questions have to be answered, like how is it our version of the Liberty Bell? How is it our version of the President’s House? How is it our version of this Old City bar, right? And what elements of afrosurrealism are we bringing in? What? So I think, no, I agree that’s, it’s really exciting to think about how are we gonna apply what we learned on Appetizer to the feature.
Jai Monee: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It’s really exciting.
David Dylan Thomas: I I wanna get back to this thing you said before about your American Lit teacher teaching you color theory. Can we get into that a little bit? And like, what was their name? What was their deal like? Like I wanna hear more about that aspect.
Jai Monee: Oh my gosh. She was a nut job.
I loved her because she was crazy. She was this like abnormally large white woman. And it felt like she, I have no idea what her like actual ethnicity was, but it felt like she was like Hungarian. Like she was like brusquely, like, big, and she was, she talked really fast. Her name was Mrs.
Pritzlove. And she, she, at the time, she was going through a divorce and you know, we used to have those like overhead. You know, things for the, they would teach you on, put the little plastic things on they would write on. And she would like clean them off with her ex-husband’s underwear and socks. Like, she would take a piece and like wet it with her mouth and like clean it off. She was insane. But I kind of feel like you have to kind of be a little in a little crazy to like really dive into some of the literature American literature, especially like modern day when you reading this and it’s like, this is kind of crazy.
It’s like, you know, I feel like a lot of those stories are like reading The Handmaid’s Tale in a way. So she, she approached things a lot with a really unique lens. And we would talk about things, you know, modern day. Versus, you know, with how they were back then and then marrying theater. That’s, I think that’s kind of like how she tapped into like the color theory of it all.
I remember us talking about The Color Purple, and that was my first example of how important color is in the space.
And you know, she was talking about, you know, how all the important scenes that you see in The Color Purple have purple in them somewhere. And just even certain flowers that you would see in the space some of the wardrobe choices when it came down to color were very important.
And that’s really like one of the base levels of how I approach any film that I work on is straight up we started with color and texture. 100%.
David Dylan Thomas: How did you, how did you think about color when working on White Meat?
Jai Monee: Well, the space was already blue. So that was it. The space was already blue.
But blue was perfect too because red, white and blue American flag. We’re talking about American Revolution in the space. But the blue was perfect mainly, you know, blue is representative of like cool tones and things of that, but it also is like representative of calm, it gives a viewer calm and a sense of like serenity of like, almost like safety in a way. And then we’re talking about safety in the space where people are dying. That sort of thing. I was like, okay. And then even with the artwork in the space there was pops of color throughout and I, and that for me translated as, you know, the splatter of the blood of these.
And being in a space where everything kind of felt normal, and then you bring in the zombies that don’t really feel normal. But also kind of like blended into the space. Somebody really noticed them. So it was, again, it’s like, like a pop of color in a outfit. You know what I mean? Or a pop of color in a, in a home, in a space.
And then of course the, the red that’s signifying danger. And, you know and, and hardship and, and, and fast pace and the energy. So even like the splatters of paint on the, I mean splatters of of blood on the towel on the American flag tile, like that was that’s, and then on the wooden floor, like it stood out in a way.
And if you wanna, if we wanna get all deep with that, that’s like, okay. Wooden floor, black bodies, blood onto American. Like, it was just, it all kind of landed it to itself. So. Yeah, for me it was like, okay, cool, we’re good. We got blue walls. If we had white walls, I probably would’ve been going crazy.
I’m like, can we get some contact paper in here? But, you know but it kind of all lended to itself and I think that the story itself is, it’s, well, of it being Benjamin Franklin, that all kind of just kind of tied in perfectly. So I didn’t really have to think too deeply about color ’cause it was already there for me.
David Dylan Thomas: No, that’s great. And again, it’s like one of those things where like the second you get blood on the American flag towel, it’s like, okay, there’s a thesis statement right there. Right. I gotta write a whole paper about that image. I think it’s kind of cool though that your, your teacher was sort of finding the value of color, which is this very visual element in a literary format, right? Which you don’t usually think about. Like, you know, you think about teaching color theory in art or in film, but you don’t usually think about. And it’s, it’s, it basically puts me in mind of like, directors who are very literary, like Scorsese for example.
And you can tell he’s read a lot of novels is, is also very good at color. But it’s just interesting to me that like. You can sort of find color in anything, right? You can. And then that, that can be a powerful, no matter what your medium is. That can be a powerful way of making a statement or, or supporting a theme.
Jai Monee: Oh yeah. And then we would, and then some of the stories we would even like act out or she would take, even though, like I said, she was over at the theater department too, so it would be some of the, you know, normal stories, but some of the smaller plays that we would put on in, in the school or some of the smaller presentations that would happen would come straight from the text.
So it was like, let’s, let’s get a little bit deeper and like, what would the colors be like, what, what, how do we want to feel? What colors should the lights be? You know what I mean? So it, it was a, it was a, it was a unlikely marriage, I feel like, in a way, but it, it, it made sense.
David Dylan Thomas: No, it’s funny, like, I’m thinking back to my, like English teachers and whatnot, and there were a few who were like, I know one of my English teachers was in fact the director of some of the the student theater projects as well, like the, the.
So it’s sort of like, you can see there, there’s a little bit of a Venn diagram usually with that.
Jai Monee: Yeah.
David Dylan Thomas: So how did you get into all this?
Jai Monee: Into film?
David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. And, and into production design specifically in film. Yeah.
Jai Monee: So, okay, so I used to, okay, in college I did a bunch of, I went to Clark Atlanta University.
Shout out to CAU. We at that school, and if you know anything about HBCUs, they’re big on pageant.
David Dylan Thomas: Mm.
Jai Monee: And like pageants, presentations and all kinds of random things. And a friend of mine was an actress and she would always go to try out for these things and I would go with her and I would just like, kind of like sit on the side at some of these auditions or some of the rehearsals, and I would be like.
What about this? Like, could we add, you know what, let’s add this. So I kind of started doing a little bit of production design before I even knew what it was. Like I didn’t go to school for film. I went to school for fashion design and merchandising. So, I had no idea what it was. I just was doing it.
But there was a production during college called Color Me Black, which was amazing. We would pretty much take over a whole academic building and each classroom would be a different scene throughout Black history. So it was like a tour through Black history. And that was like my first kind of like lead into really like leading team in the art department. ’cause we were doing costumes, we were training actors and we were doing all of the sets. So I didn’t know anything about that. But when I left college I started doing a little bit of like event design which was taking some of my knowledge from that over into events.
And then I started doing installation work. And during the pandemic, actually there’s a museum in Philadelphia called the Colored Girls Museum based in Germantown. They were closed during the season, of course, during the pandemic, but they still wanted to reach the public and do something in the space.
And the museum is actually inside of like an old home. But it had this really beautiful porch on the outside. And basically I did an exhibit on the porch during the pandemic. And that exhibit, mainly it was illustrating like how the women around me were feeling when it came down to the pandemic.
Just really feeling like. Like a loss, like loss of family, loss of tradition, especially was around the holidays too that I was doing the exhibit. So it was like, set up almost like your grandmother or your aunt’s home on the porch as well as like a lot of women were talking about they miss like dressing up and going out and just even like the feeling of like getting dressed and doing your hair and your makeup.
So we had, I had a vanity out there and like.
David Dylan Thomas: Oh cool.
Jai Monee: Just small attributes, you know, little things for hair and stuff like that. But that installation a friend of mine. She’s now my friend, but we, I another friend of mine from college, he worked on his first short film and I did some costuming, maybe a year and a half before that.
And that was my first time actually working in film period. So I had no idea. I’d never been on a set before. But the producer of that she saw my exhibit at the Color Girls Museum and she’s like, Hey, I got a job for you. And that was my first time working. It’s actually on a feature film that’s still being edited right now.
And we were shooting in Maine and I was the only person in my department working, working on this set. And I had no idea, of course, that this is my first time. So I was doing costumes and the set and we, yeah, it was during the pandemic. It was crazy. Our set got shut down halfway through.
But it was a time, it was a crazy time. It was also a pretty crazy story making little tampons to feed to a tick, which was interesting.
David Dylan Thomas: I can’t tell if I want more detail or wanna wait until the movie comes out and then ask.
Jai Monee: It was crazy. But yeah, that was my first. My first, first like official like film that I worked on, and then right after that it just kind of like each film kind of grew off the next one.
Right after that I did Grace, which is what you see behind me. Which has been getting a lot of attention. So yeah, that’s kind of how I got into it.
David Dylan Thomas: That’s, I’m sorry, I do have to ask. Feeding. Why, why were you feeding a tick? And then I can ask why a tampon.
Jai Monee: Okay. So basically without saying too much, the story takes place on like a dance camp.
At a dance camp in Maine. It was right by the water. Like, we’re in cabins and all the things. And basically this character has a moment where she finds a tick on her. Doing the tick check and she saw that it was dying and she wanted to save it. And she knew that to save this tick’s life, it needed some blood.
And she put the tick in a little Ziploc baggie, and she went to the bathroom and she was like, Hey, my tampon is bloody. Let me put it in there. So to save its life.
David Dylan Thomas: Needs must. That’s, that’s fantastic. Yeah. I, I can’t wait to see this movie. So are you a well actually before I ask you that, I wanna ask you this.
So now that you’ve been doing this for a while, are there examples in film generally that you’re like, hey, that’s an example of great production design?
Jai Monee: Ooh. Hmm. I couldn’t, I feel like everybody says this, but maybe like Her is a really great example that, that’s a great example of color. The color is very present in that.
And I think it’s so interesting how great the production design is in that because the main character is talking to a operating system.
David Dylan Thomas: Yeah.
Jai Monee: Like, there’s nobody else. So it’s more so you know, him and a screen or just more so the audio versus a person but just illustrated his life. I think that was amazing.
Again, I love, like I said, I love Atlanta. I think that was amazing. I mean from even just like, like one of my favorite episodes is the, I think, I can’t remember what it’s called, but they do like the public access TV episode with Paperboy.
David Dylan Thomas: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jai Monee: I love that episode.
Especially because they recreate the commercials.
In that, and then the commercials, the way that the production design even in that was so intentional. I, I love that. Let me think. I am such a, like, I, I know you’re gonna ask me about horror films and I am not a horror girl.
David Dylan Thomas: Okay. Okay.
Jai Monee: I’m not a horror girl, but I will tap into this. It’s a little bit in the sense of like, scary movies. Think of that. This may not be technically scary for anybody that’s listening, but the movie, Nope.
David Dylan Thomas: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jai Monee: Like that’s a thriller. It’s a kind of, you know. Like the, the, the silver spear in that, like the, the farm elements.
Even illustrating the past of their grandfather being a cowboy and like. A lot of the design elements in that I think are really cool. And then lastly, if you wanna like, touch into some little, a little gore, I think in my opinion, would be like the Kill Bill series.
David Dylan Thomas: Oh yeah.
Jai Monee: Like, I think that that was so amazing.
Especially, especially color in that, like the yellows. The, the color and the lighting was amazing. Also I think a really great lighting like Euphoria, even though I hate that story to be honest with you. But the color in that was so perfect. It was vibrant and it was like deep when it needed to be.
Like it was just, it, it really drove your emotions and I think all of these, with all these stories, they really drive your emotions to think the way that the, that the director or the team wants you to think.
David Dylan Thomas: Yeah, I gotta say that the Kill Bill. That is probably the, the Crazy 88 sequence at the end of the first one is not only one of my favorite fight scenes of all time, but it’s also one of my favorite sets of all time.
Jai Monee: Yes.
David Dylan Thomas: And I, so as much as I’m a horror fan, my number one genre is action. And whenever I move into a space I’m always in the back of my head thinking, like, I’m always noticing if it happens to be a space where it would be great, this would be a great place to have like an action scene, right?
Because there is like levels of, and with the, the beauty of the Kill Bill Crazy 88 sequence is that it is a space that is both roomy, like the centerpiece of, it’s just this big giant dance floor, basically. So you have a lot of room to just fight. And not deal with the space, but you also have these really cool levels, these really cool stairs, these really cool elements that you can kind of pull back and be in this other color scheme.
Like it’s a playground. Like for fighting. It is a playground. And it’s like, yeah, it could, you could not design a better space for a scene like that. So I love that perfect marriage of like, here’s what needs to happen here and here’s how we’ve designed the space for it to happen. Yeah, I think that’s a great choice.
Jai Monee: Yeah, and then even like. The, the, the textures, right? So when we talk about textures in film, it’s not necessarily just like if it’s fur or, you know, chenille or, you know, whatever. The fabric of the space, but it’s really the textures that the light catches.
David Dylan Thomas: Yeah.
Jai Monee: So when you’re talking about that’s the fight sequence happening in that space. A lot of room to move in that, but even the levels in that space. The way that the light creates shadows or not, or, you know, a person stepping in and out of, or you being thrown across the room the way that that throw grows. You know, throughout the space with the camera, with the cameras catching, with the lights, with the costume, like all of that, all of those layers create texture that feels more dynamic so that we understand that this feels real and how, how hard she’s hitting the wall.
You know what I mean?
David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Like, just to go super deep here, like that is another thing. Just the, the way you think about space when it come really any set piece I, I’m thinking action but it’s true for horror as well. And this is something I think we tried to play with in the short, like Shane Black is one of my favorite sort of movie creators, be it screenwriting or directing, and what I’ve noticed about his movies.
Action scenes in his movies almost always work three dimensionally, which is to say it isn’t just back and forth or, or front to back or whatever it is also always vertical. Like he always has levels, whether it’s the freeway chase in Lethal Weapon, or the final scene in Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang or the final scene in The Nice Guys, like, there’s always some kind of levels going on where you’re not just fighting on one platform, you have to move down, and then there’s a danger in that and there’s like, you know. But that to me, just on its own, ’cause his fight scenes aren’t terribly complex for the most part.
But because he’s adding just this one extra dimension to it, you get all, like, to your point, you get all this more texture. Right. And the light gets. The movement gets more interesting and the world itself feels fuller. You know what I mean? Than just, here’s the room, let’s fight in the room, you know?
Jai Monee: Yeah. And it feels realer. ’cause like if you’re. If you in a fight with somebody, you’re not gonna stay in one space. Y’all gonna always gonna move around. You gonna roll around, you know, you gonna try to throw somebody, I’m running after you. You know what I mean? So it’s like it, you have to have enough of this, enough space, of course, to do the action.
But of course, everything that’s around it, what you’re knocking into, you know what. What kind of floor is it? You know, what sound is it gonna make when they hit the wall or the floor? You know what I mean? Like all of that, all of those textures make us understand and believe this world that we’re in.
David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. And I think that was one of the fun things. So let me ask you about this. So is, was this your first time working on a horror set?
Jai Monee: Yes.
David Dylan Thomas: What was, what was that? Tell me what was that like?
Jai Monee: Honestly, once the blood started to come on set, I thought I was gonna be nervous. I thought I, once the guts came out and all of that, and the, the brains, I thought that I was going to be freaked out, honestly, but I wasn’t. I think it was more so like, well, here’s the thing. So when I found out that I didn’t have to do any of the special effects, I was, it was a very bittersweet moment for me because I was excited to do it.
I had started like making a bunch of like you know prop models and. Trying to, you know, work through some things. But then also I was like, I kind of just wanna sit back and like learn. I wanna see what I can learn in the moment. So I was like, okay. I was excited to see it come together.
And I think also like walking into holding where special effects were and to see all the fingers around. And like all of, you know, the blood being made and like I’m seeing the, the brain guts be made. I was like. This is kind of disgusting, but like, it didn’t turn my stomach because I kind of have a weak stomach when it comes down to like gory things.
Like I just won’t…
David Dylan Thomas: Sure
Jai Monee: …look at it. But just to see it in person and to see the process of it and aiding the process and cleaning the process it wasn’t as bad as I thought. I didn’t even some of the like. I just think about, I think her name is Phillis, the, the slave character gnawing on the cheek.
David Dylan Thomas: Yeah.
Jai Monee: Like, oh my God. I thought that that was gonna be, that was probably the most disgusting part, like out of all of it for me. Just ’cause it felt so real to see how it happened. I think I felt okay because I realized in the moment of, of course, being there while it’s happening, like this is not real.
None of this is, you know, so I felt okay. Now watching it back is gonna be interesting.
David Dylan Thomas: Well, no. Right, and I’ll, I’m gonna be honest with you, that was also for me, like that was Fre’s idea. And even now for a second, I was like, I don’t know if I want to go that far, because that’s like, like stretchy skin is kind of like, a thing for me.
Like even though I’m totally like, you know, into gore or whatever. And it’s really funny too ’cause I grew up totally afraid of gore. I think I decided early I was never gonna be a doctor ’cause I can’t handle blood. So like, so like it’s really funny now to be like a mature adult making the stuff that I as a child would be terrified of.
Jai Monee: Oh my goodness.
David Dylan Thomas: But no, I’m with you on that. And like, and again, the way it turned out I think is kind of perfect. And going back to what you were saying about like texture. Literally. I think the fact that so much of that scene is done from under a table. So we have, again, this like height thing happening where it isn’t just like dead on and you’re like, you’ve got all these little obstructions, like a chair or the, the pillar of the table or whatever, kind of getting in the way, giving a little distance from the horror.
So you’re sort of like, it is a little bit of like, I think a really well done horror scene gives you a little bit of freedom around that, where it isn’t just in your face.
Jai Monee: Yeah.
David Dylan Thomas: You have a little bit of like, you know, “Did I see what I just saw?”, kind of thing.
Jai Monee: Yeah.
David Dylan Thomas: But but yeah, no, so I’m with you on that. I wasn’t sure.
And again, it’s my first time working on a proper horror film too, especially with that level of sophistication in the gore and the makeup and the special effects. And it was interesting, like even now as I sort through the set photos, some of those, I’m like, okay, this looks like a crime scene. I can’t post this.
Jai Monee: I’m looking back at a lot of those photos. I’m like updating my website currently and I’m like trying to pick the photos to put on there and I’m like, this looks disgusting. I’m like, also like how great, like, just understanding like what the brain guts was were made out of and like seeing those pieces like it was just.
It, it’s kind of like, it tricks the, the psyche seriously.
David Dylan Thomas: Oh, totally. And I, and I guarantee you, like even watching some of the raw footage, I’m like, when this cuts together, it’s gonna be 10 times scarier. Oh my goodness. Even just watching. So you were in the room when we did like the scream takes, right?
Jai Monee: Yeah.
David Dylan Thomas: So for the, so for the listener, we did these takes where like you’d have a horror thing happen, like a zombie attack. And you’d get it on camera without any, any of the noise. So in case you needed to filter in noise later, but then we would do what’s called a scream take where you do the attack again.
But this time, if people were supposed to be screaming either on or off camera, they’d do it. And it was terrifying. Like it was so loud.
Jai Monee: It was.
David Dylan Thomas: And I was so surprised at how loud it was.
Jai Monee: It was deep too.
David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. And so we would do them and we wouldn’t do a lot, ’cause this is like 10 o’clock in the suburbs, we’re gonna get the cops call on us.
So we did a couple. But then watching them back now we’re all, ’cause when in the moment you see the camera, you see all the lights, you see all of that, and it’s still scary with all the screams. When you are looking at the footage and it’s just the iPhone lens and you hear all this screaming from quote unquote off camera, it is 10 times worse.
So you’re right, if we do this correctly, it is gonna be so much more terrifying.
Jai Monee: Oh yes. One of those scream, one of those screams was me as well. It was the point where it was like, I think we had let go of our extras at the time or something like that, and it was where they were sitting at.
There were two black women sitting there and they were like, well. I think they sent like a guy over to scream. I’m like, no. There was a woman like, this is me in my details. I’m like.
David Dylan Thomas: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Jai Monee: But like, I’m like, no, it was two women sitting over there, so it needs to be a woman. And they’re like, who was to scream?
I’m like, it’s enough black women in this room. You know what? Let me go scream. And I think that was hilarious. ’cause it was the first time we did one of, the first times we did the scream take you were yelling cut, but nobody could hear you.
David Dylan Thomas: Oh yeah. It was too loud. Like the scream was too loud. I had to like literally physically have people go over and say, you can stop now.
No, my favorite part of it. I was just say my favorite part of that was the I think it was the first one, and this was Billy again. Billy was fantastic. Billy said.
Jai Monee: Oh, my favorite.
David Dylan Thomas: She was like screaming At the end of it, I heard her yell I want my lawyer.
Jai Monee: Yes. Oh my God.
David Dylan Thomas: I really hope that comes through in the mix. That’s so funny.
Jai Monee: I even thought too, like when I was screaming for one of the takes, it was like the lingering of screams too. ’cause I think when we cut, I still was like, oh, like, you know the aftermath of like shaking
David Dylan Thomas: And it’s such a horror trope too. Right. But it works. It’s like so primal.
Jai Monee: Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, could you imagine like, what, are you kidding me? And then, I mean, I’m not even gonna, I’m not gonna spoil it, but the whole like, camera phone moment with Billy, like.
David Dylan Thomas: Yeah, oh.
Jai Monee: That was hilarious. But like, just to even be sitting there, I’m, I, I was thinking to myself like, being in this moment, this was happening for real.
And I am a black woman and I’m watching this happen. I’m, well first, first things first, I’m gonna scream because this is crazy, but I might just calm down. Like my scream is gonna calm down. ’cause I have a. I probably would’ve been like, there’s more white people to the right. Like that’s just more so me.
David Dylan Thomas: You missed, you missed one.
You missed one. Well, walking down the street, hold on.
David Dylan Thomas: Yo, you missed a spot
Jai Monee: Like getting that initial like, you know, scary moment out the way.
David Dylan Thomas: Oh man. I’m gonna go on record now is I gotta, I gotta put that in the, in the White Meat script and I gotta, I gotta give you a credit for that.
That’s so funny. Oh my god. You know what it reminds me of? So there’s a Hulk comic. No. Black Panther comic, one of the, the Chris Claremont Black Panther comics where he goes to Harlem. And he hooks up. He’s like working with this sistah who’s leading, leading like a like a Black Revolution movement.
And the Hulk shows up and is like wrecking cars. And she says to the Hulk, no, no. Wreck the cop car.
Jai Monee: Exactly that. That’s me.
David Dylan Thomas: He does. It’s so funny. Oh my God. Well, Jai, it’s, it’s been wonderful to have you on. Thank you again for your marvelous work on the the, the shoot you like. Y’all don’t understand, like, I’ll have photos of this when I be posting more to the Instagram of her stuff, but I’ll post the menus and stuff and like even down to the what do you call those that you put on the glass wall?
Jai Monee: Oh, like, the decals.
David Dylan Thomas: The decals. So these massive Beanjamin Franklin decals that she put up on the door, and again, barely gonna get picked up on camera, but they add so much to the world that’s easier to act in and it’s easier to. So thank you all for that ama, or thank you for all that amazing work.
Yeah. And being a great production designer.
Jai Monee: It was a pleasure. I thank you for pulling me in that way because I mean, I thought I talked, when I talked to Stephanie our producer about this, it, you know, initially it was for costuming, which I was excited to do. But when we started talking about production design, I was like, there’s so much opportunity here.
And I love to just kind of just switch it all up and I was like, this is such a opportunity, especially in a space that you know, a, a space and a story that is surreal but funny. But like weird and kind of quirky. I’m like, this is, it’s a cool opportunity and I would love to, you know, play in and hopefully you call me back for the feature.
David Dylan Thomas: Yeah. I’ll definitely, definitely be staying in touch, I’ll tell you that much. Awesome.
Jai Monee: Yeah, it was a pleasure.
David Dylan Thomas: All right. And for the White Meat Podcast, I’m David Dylan Thomas, and we will talk to you next time.
